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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6051964" data-attributes="member: 82106">I guess this just confuses me. I remember a dungeon I ran in 4e a while back. The rogue got rather mauled by some giant spiders early on. The spiders were easily dispatched but the rogue lost 4 of his 6 surges. He then went on to hit some trap or other in the next area and lost the other 2 surges before things were straightened out. Now, if that rogue had taken more damage and gone below 0 hit points he would be D. E. A. D. Even though the next encounter he was at 'full hitpoints' he was cowering in the rear of the party throwing daggers while the paladin held back all the bad guys. The PLAYER seemed to have a good reason to believe that his character was seriously weakened. However you describe that it sure felt like there was a DAILY resource that was important there. So I guess I'm confused as to why just because the surge and hit point pools are separate that this really changes anything very much. I didn't find that it did.I can understand the idea that archetypes are weaker. Actually I think  that in 4e the archetypes aren't even really all that operative in terms  of class<->archetype. Instead classes are toolkits to construct  certain archetypes, but they aren't exclusive. In other words I can make  a fighter that meets the 'trickster' archetype, but fights in a  'fighterly' style as opposed to a 'roguish' style. Maybe that's not the  perfect way for things to work, but I can make my sneaky guy. In  AD&D 3 other players could have picked 'thief' for one of their  classes and I wouldn't be unique either.This I just don't understand at all. If you want to sneak past the gate guard and you decide to use Arcana to do so you had better come up with a good narrative explanation of how that works, backed up by some sort of resource or capability that your character has or some other explicit reason. NOTHING in 4e ever suggests that you can use any old skill to do any old thing. No, but sometimes when for instance people tell me there is only an encounter hit point resource or that a skill can be used for anything in 4e, I begin to wonder if the game is being criticized or there is some other underlying source of discontent and mechanical issues are just brought up because nobody on either side of this discussion really knows what the real issue is. It isn't that there aren't issues, but the issues seem to be entirely different from what is being said.</blockquote>

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