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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6053912" data-attributes="member: 82106">One possibility is that you have that nightmarishly ultra-tactical group that just sucks up level+5 and spits it back out. Those do exist, the people who's characters are optimized to a T and work together like a well-oiled machine.&nbsp; I never had a whole party like that (so far) but I do usually have a player or two that can show up and step it up a good notch. 4e at least will hang together though. I think the thing is at that point you have to ask if &quot;tougher fight&quot; is the way to go, at least in the classic sense. You might start to add in some real SOD/SOS type elements if you want, give them a bit of a &quot;things can go bad if lady luck doesn't help out&quot; kind of thing, or make the fights about existential type threats. Even having fights that dish out diseases and/or curses can be a good way to approach that. Maybe some other sorts of things like traps or 'tricks' that can mess with the player's plans (send them down some pit into the sewer and create a complication sort of thing). In other words broadening the focus some so that the mechanical details of a specific encounter aren't quite as much the big deal and other things take some focus. You could do survival stuff too, situations where the PCs can pick their poison. Something like a fight that is a rear-guard action. The PCs can bypass it by eating a bunch of damage to cross hostile terrain, or take the delay of fighting the monsters and maybe avoiding the damage but losing time. Anything to build a more strategically focused situation.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6053912, member: 82106"] One possibility is that you have that nightmarishly ultra-tactical group that just sucks up level+5 and spits it back out. Those do exist, the people who's characters are optimized to a T and work together like a well-oiled machine. I never had a whole party like that (so far) but I do usually have a player or two that can show up and step it up a good notch. 4e at least will hang together though. I think the thing is at that point you have to ask if "tougher fight" is the way to go, at least in the classic sense. You might start to add in some real SOD/SOS type elements if you want, give them a bit of a "things can go bad if lady luck doesn't help out" kind of thing, or make the fights about existential type threats. Even having fights that dish out diseases and/or curses can be a good way to approach that. Maybe some other sorts of things like traps or 'tricks' that can mess with the player's plans (send them down some pit into the sewer and create a complication sort of thing). In other words broadening the focus some so that the mechanical details of a specific encounter aren't quite as much the big deal and other things take some focus. You could do survival stuff too, situations where the PCs can pick their poison. Something like a fight that is a rear-guard action. The PCs can bypass it by eating a bunch of damage to cross hostile terrain, or take the delay of fighting the monsters and maybe avoiding the damage but losing time. Anything to build a more strategically focused situation. [/QUOTE]

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