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4E is like WoW (NOT!)
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<blockquote data-quote="shadowguidex" data-source="post: 4120888" data-attributes="member: 60880"><p>Those class roles have always been implicit in Dungeons and Dragons. Everyone who has ever played a cleric knows that it was his role to heal the party. Everyone who has ever played a fighter knew that it was his role to get a blade on the enemies and keep them away from the casters. None of this was new to WoW, but WoW (actually Everquest) was forced to create a mechanic to allow a dumb AI to know who to attack.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>Gotta call your abilities something. D&D has always had a multitude of terms for abilities: Weapon Specialization, Cleave, Backstab, Species Enemy, Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, Counterspell, Feint, Rage, Ki Strike, Quivering Palm, Death Attack, Lay on Hands, etc.</p><p></p><p>In fact, many many terms that WoW uses originates from D&D, not the other way around: Backstab, Lay on Hands, Cleave, Feint, Counterspell, etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This area is the greatest place where we see D&D taking inspiration from MMOs like WoW, I agree here, although the ONLY "marks" that WoW has is the Hunter's Mark, then meaningless symbols you can assign to targets (Can't count DoTs because WoW didn't invent them). D&D has taken the concept of specific monster targeting and expanded the premise with special abilities relevant to your foe, like Warlocks Curse, Ranger's Quarry, Fighter's Mark, Paladin' Mark. I think this is the one area where the WoW system of creature targeting has inspired D&D, but WoW does not actually utilize marks to the extent that D&D 4E seems to be taking them. In WoW, marking for a striker (DPS) means targeting that foe and attacking it - WoW's "Strikers" don't need to further differentiate their target because you can only target one creature at a time.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>WoW has the inherent concept of aggro that the dumb AI needs to successfully work. The "tanks" have not just one mark, but TONS of abilities that keep the monster's attention on the warrior. Take the Warrior for example, they have not only Taunt, but: Revenge, Heroic Strike, Shield Slam, Devastate, Sunder Armor, Mocking Blow, Thunderclap, Cleave, etc.</p><p></p><p>D&D only has the mark, that's it. The Mark doesn't force the opponent to attack the fighter, it just makes the fighter a more likely target (-2 vs. other opponents). In general, the idea that the menacing fighter in the front causes a bit on concern to his target is fairly spot on. If you got a dude in your face attacking you constantly, you can't really disengage easily to go attack someone else.</p><p></p><p>This is NOTHING like WoW where the aggro is king. DMs have all the luxury in the world of just ignoring the mark and attack whatever they enjoy. I have utilized the idea of intelligent targeting in my games, whereby my monsters will use tactics loosely based on their intelligence. If the foe is a dumb-as-hell ogre he will wail on the first guy he sees expecting to demolish that target - He is too stupid to pick out the true threats. The Lich on the other hand, is crafty enough to know that the healer is the most important target and will make sure he focuses his attention where the true threat lies. In WoW, intelligence targeting doesn't work and isn't possible, and therefore D&D can present truly sinister threats that WoW just cannot.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And Talents = Kits. I played my old Battlerager from the brown kit books in 2E LONG before WoW was conceptualized. Battlerager, Vindicator, Bladesinger etc. The Skills and Powers book increased the customization to 2E characters as well. Customization of your basic class was not invented by WoW, not by a long shot, so don't credit them with that. </p><p></p><p>-----</p><p></p><p>I have played WoW since release and I love the game, but I never...and I mean never...miss my D&D games on Fridays, because they are far and away my favorite hobby. WoW and D&D share a genre, and a few terms and concepts, but that's about it. The basis for comparison can only be formulated by assessing the computer code of WoW with the written rules for D&D, but from that point onward they totally diverge. Tabletop gaming and computer gaming never feels similar to me, but they are both very fun in their own unique ways.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="shadowguidex, post: 4120888, member: 60880"] Those class roles have always been implicit in Dungeons and Dragons. Everyone who has ever played a cleric knows that it was his role to heal the party. Everyone who has ever played a fighter knew that it was his role to get a blade on the enemies and keep them away from the casters. None of this was new to WoW, but WoW (actually Everquest) was forced to create a mechanic to allow a dumb AI to know who to attack. Gotta call your abilities something. D&D has always had a multitude of terms for abilities: Weapon Specialization, Cleave, Backstab, Species Enemy, Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, Counterspell, Feint, Rage, Ki Strike, Quivering Palm, Death Attack, Lay on Hands, etc. In fact, many many terms that WoW uses originates from D&D, not the other way around: Backstab, Lay on Hands, Cleave, Feint, Counterspell, etc. This area is the greatest place where we see D&D taking inspiration from MMOs like WoW, I agree here, although the ONLY "marks" that WoW has is the Hunter's Mark, then meaningless symbols you can assign to targets (Can't count DoTs because WoW didn't invent them). D&D has taken the concept of specific monster targeting and expanded the premise with special abilities relevant to your foe, like Warlocks Curse, Ranger's Quarry, Fighter's Mark, Paladin' Mark. I think this is the one area where the WoW system of creature targeting has inspired D&D, but WoW does not actually utilize marks to the extent that D&D 4E seems to be taking them. In WoW, marking for a striker (DPS) means targeting that foe and attacking it - WoW's "Strikers" don't need to further differentiate their target because you can only target one creature at a time. WoW has the inherent concept of aggro that the dumb AI needs to successfully work. The "tanks" have not just one mark, but TONS of abilities that keep the monster's attention on the warrior. Take the Warrior for example, they have not only Taunt, but: Revenge, Heroic Strike, Shield Slam, Devastate, Sunder Armor, Mocking Blow, Thunderclap, Cleave, etc. D&D only has the mark, that's it. The Mark doesn't force the opponent to attack the fighter, it just makes the fighter a more likely target (-2 vs. other opponents). In general, the idea that the menacing fighter in the front causes a bit on concern to his target is fairly spot on. If you got a dude in your face attacking you constantly, you can't really disengage easily to go attack someone else. This is NOTHING like WoW where the aggro is king. DMs have all the luxury in the world of just ignoring the mark and attack whatever they enjoy. I have utilized the idea of intelligent targeting in my games, whereby my monsters will use tactics loosely based on their intelligence. If the foe is a dumb-as-hell ogre he will wail on the first guy he sees expecting to demolish that target - He is too stupid to pick out the true threats. The Lich on the other hand, is crafty enough to know that the healer is the most important target and will make sure he focuses his attention where the true threat lies. In WoW, intelligence targeting doesn't work and isn't possible, and therefore D&D can present truly sinister threats that WoW just cannot. And Talents = Kits. I played my old Battlerager from the brown kit books in 2E LONG before WoW was conceptualized. Battlerager, Vindicator, Bladesinger etc. The Skills and Powers book increased the customization to 2E characters as well. Customization of your basic class was not invented by WoW, not by a long shot, so don't credit them with that. ----- I have played WoW since release and I love the game, but I never...and I mean never...miss my D&D games on Fridays, because they are far and away my favorite hobby. WoW and D&D share a genre, and a few terms and concepts, but that's about it. The basis for comparison can only be formulated by assessing the computer code of WoW with the written rules for D&D, but from that point onward they totally diverge. Tabletop gaming and computer gaming never feels similar to me, but they are both very fun in their own unique ways. [/QUOTE]
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