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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
4E: Manufactured Excitement
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<blockquote data-quote="JohnSnow" data-source="post: 3814478" data-attributes="member: 32164"><p>You want to know why we're excited? Okay, assuming this isn't a troll, I'll actually try. By way of background, I started with a PHB, the monster manual, and D&D basic. I ran a hodgepodge that probably felt a lot like OD&D. I bought lots of AD&D supplements, 2nd Edition, tons of 2e supplements, 3e, 3.5e, and tons of supplements for both. I also own a fair amount of third-party stuff - from Green Ronin, Malhavoc, and Fantasy Flight.</p><p></p><p>There are things that nag me about 3e. It takes a significant amount of time to prep. You can't run a game without a cleric. Low-level play is lame. High-level play is a tedious exchange waiting until someone rolls a 1. Balance-wise, the game depends on rich characters armed to the teeth with magic items, which doesn't always work thematically. The magic system only models properly fantasy where magic functions the way it does in the works of Jack Vance.</p><p></p><p>As a result, I was using LOTS of 3rd-party supplements to get the flavor of game I wanted. <em>Iron Heroes, Elements of Magic, True Sorcery</em> and the like were getting more use at my table than the <em>Player's Handbook.</em> I liked the magic system and class balance in <em>Midnight</em> better than what was in the PHB.</p><p></p><p>Then, after getting <em>Star Wars Saga Edition,</em> I started to want a game that would play faster - the way it seems Saga will. But I still want to play fantasy more than I want to play <em>Star Wars</em> - it's more open-ended. So then I was starting to houserule my <em>Iron Heroes</em> game...</p><p></p><p>And while it still felt like D&D to me, quite honestly, something bugged me about the fact that I wasn't running "real" <em>Dungeons & Dragons.</em> Add that to the fact that I feel like I have to tinker extensively with the system to get something I enjoy...I was even writing my own magic system, for god's sake!</p><p></p><p>That's why I'm excited about 4e. Because, from what I know about the designers and developers and what they're saying, it looks more and more like the game I'd design if I had the time to devote to really doing D&D "the way I want it."</p><p></p><p>Mr. Gygax's game was great - in 1974. But it's not 1974 anymore. AD&D consolidated all the variants and made some things better. Then Second Edition came along and cleaned some things up. It did a pretty good job, but some things stayed quirky. But Third Edition was a HUGE improvement over second (although I played a lot more 3.5 than 3e). Then the supplements came out and improved a lot of things even more.</p><p></p><p>Why, I wondered, couldn't the ranger be more like the scout? Or the fighter more like the Warblade? And 4E is making that stuff happen. A lot of things have changed over the years, and I don't see why anything Mr. Gygax decided in 1974 should be left alone simply because "That's how EGG decided to do it."</p><p></p><p>That's the way the game has ALWAYS been:</p><p></p><p>Release edition.</p><p>Add Stuff until the options get ridiculous.</p><p>Re-consolidate into a new edition and improve clunky elements.</p><p>Repeat.</p><p></p><p>By way of full disclosure, I bought an iPod at full price. I knew the price would drop and the phone would improve inside of a few months. It happens with all new releases (computers, phones, etc.). However, I wanted to have the phone back in June, rather than waiting until September, and I was willing to pay a premium to get it THEN.</p><p></p><p>And you know what? It was worth it.</p><p></p><p>Just like I'm sure 4e will be next year. I like the designers. I trust them. Andy, Rob, Mike, James, Greg, Bruce, Rodney and the rest have all earned a measure of trust. On top of that, they've got Jonathan Tweet doing playtests. Just about the only thing that would make me more confident is if they brought in Will Upchurch, Ari, or a couple of other folks here...</p><p></p><p>My only regret is that I won't have the rules until sometime next year. (Still crossing my fingers and hoping they'll ask me to do some form of playtesting).</p><p></p><p>So, does that answer your question?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JohnSnow, post: 3814478, member: 32164"] You want to know why we're excited? Okay, assuming this isn't a troll, I'll actually try. By way of background, I started with a PHB, the monster manual, and D&D basic. I ran a hodgepodge that probably felt a lot like OD&D. I bought lots of AD&D supplements, 2nd Edition, tons of 2e supplements, 3e, 3.5e, and tons of supplements for both. I also own a fair amount of third-party stuff - from Green Ronin, Malhavoc, and Fantasy Flight. There are things that nag me about 3e. It takes a significant amount of time to prep. You can't run a game without a cleric. Low-level play is lame. High-level play is a tedious exchange waiting until someone rolls a 1. Balance-wise, the game depends on rich characters armed to the teeth with magic items, which doesn't always work thematically. The magic system only models properly fantasy where magic functions the way it does in the works of Jack Vance. As a result, I was using LOTS of 3rd-party supplements to get the flavor of game I wanted. [i]Iron Heroes, Elements of Magic, True Sorcery[/i] and the like were getting more use at my table than the [i]Player's Handbook.[/i] I liked the magic system and class balance in [i]Midnight[/i] better than what was in the PHB. Then, after getting [i]Star Wars Saga Edition,[/i] I started to want a game that would play faster - the way it seems Saga will. But I still want to play fantasy more than I want to play [i]Star Wars[/i] - it's more open-ended. So then I was starting to houserule my [i]Iron Heroes[/i] game... And while it still felt like D&D to me, quite honestly, something bugged me about the fact that I wasn't running "real" [i]Dungeons & Dragons.[/i] Add that to the fact that I feel like I have to tinker extensively with the system to get something I enjoy...I was even writing my own magic system, for god's sake! That's why I'm excited about 4e. Because, from what I know about the designers and developers and what they're saying, it looks more and more like the game I'd design if I had the time to devote to really doing D&D "the way I want it." Mr. Gygax's game was great - in 1974. But it's not 1974 anymore. AD&D consolidated all the variants and made some things better. Then Second Edition came along and cleaned some things up. It did a pretty good job, but some things stayed quirky. But Third Edition was a HUGE improvement over second (although I played a lot more 3.5 than 3e). Then the supplements came out and improved a lot of things even more. Why, I wondered, couldn't the ranger be more like the scout? Or the fighter more like the Warblade? And 4E is making that stuff happen. A lot of things have changed over the years, and I don't see why anything Mr. Gygax decided in 1974 should be left alone simply because "That's how EGG decided to do it." That's the way the game has ALWAYS been: Release edition. Add Stuff until the options get ridiculous. Re-consolidate into a new edition and improve clunky elements. Repeat. By way of full disclosure, I bought an iPod at full price. I knew the price would drop and the phone would improve inside of a few months. It happens with all new releases (computers, phones, etc.). However, I wanted to have the phone back in June, rather than waiting until September, and I was willing to pay a premium to get it THEN. And you know what? It was worth it. Just like I'm sure 4e will be next year. I like the designers. I trust them. Andy, Rob, Mike, James, Greg, Bruce, Rodney and the rest have all earned a measure of trust. On top of that, they've got Jonathan Tweet doing playtests. Just about the only thing that would make me more confident is if they brought in Will Upchurch, Ari, or a couple of other folks here... My only regret is that I won't have the rules until sometime next year. (Still crossing my fingers and hoping they'll ask me to do some form of playtesting). So, does that answer your question? [/QUOTE]
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