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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dausuul" data-source="post: 5574625" data-attributes="member: 58197">I think we're more or less on the same page about the thief. TSR D&D always struggled with the question, "What happens when the fighter takes off her armor, puts on soft shoes, and walks real quiet-like?" Clearly we agree that a fighter should be able to try this, with some chance of success. So if thieves are extra-good at stealth, either they need big bonuses that the fighter doesn't get (too crunchy and fiddly for my taste), or they need to be able to do stuff where the DM could reasonably tell the fighter, "No, you just plain can't do that"--like ghost right past a guard with no cover but a shadow. I don't view a thief as being primarily about combat specialness--but a thief should have special things to do in combat, that nobody else can do. This is one of 4E's crucial insights. In a game where combat plays an enormous role, every class needs a place in the combat spotlight.That's a good point; still, I think professions can be made to cover this scenario. The noble would presumably have Profession: Aristocrat. The rogue has a very good roll to imitate the manners and behavior of a noble... but the real noble doesn't have to roll at all.Really, this is less a question of complexity and more a question of DM load. An open-ended trait system such as you describe is not much crunchier than professions, but it does require more work from the DM, who has to constantly adjudicate what is or is not covered by any given trait. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I don't think it coexists well with ability scores and the rest of D&D; the marginal gain is not enough to justify the cost. Open-ended traits are best used as the central mechanic of a system built around them.Using professions rather than traits doesn't remove the need for DM adjudication, but it confines it to a more limited space. (We're arguing some fairly fine details here. It doesn't seem like there's a lot of distance between your vision and mine, mostly just a question of how defined the "secondary skill" system is and how much application it should have in regular play.)</blockquote>

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