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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MoutonRustique" data-source="post: 6411512" data-attributes="member: 22362">All true. With regards to their inclusion or not, it then becomes a question of where we draw lines and why - which devolves to opinions, so not much to discuss. Your points are understood and quite valid.I can't fault what you say. In a sense, we're kind of both "preaching to the choir" here - feels like we're trying to out-convince each other of things we're both already sold on. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" />As a slight "correction", I was coming more from the "non-tactical / "real" magic-magic" aspect (as you can see, I am struggling with the correct words for the concept I am trying to convey... "real" magic-magic indeed... sheesh <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm    :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" />)The spells that changed landscapes, allowed faster overland travel, disguised the entire party to infiltrate a ball, created castles, "rope trick", scrying, teleporting and plane shifting, etc. Those kinds of spells - as opposed to those with immediate tactical use (which were translated to powers). I heard a good deal of wailing and gnashing of teeth over the "loss" of these types of spells. I also believe that for many, that fireball used the same kind of resource as phantom steed really sold them on the fact that those were spells!. When they saw that 4e's fireball and phantom steed used different resources, one of them became "less a spell" (as a funny side-bit, which one wasn't a spell anymore changed from person to person <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/nervous.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":heh:" title="Nervous Laugh    :heh:" data-shortname=":heh:" />). It's not a viewpoint I think is correct, but it's one I've seen fairly often (even among those willing to give 4e a fair shake).All this being said, what I found people didn't connect with is pretty heavily influenced by the people I had contact with - so our experiences could vary by a pretty big margin...</blockquote>

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