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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mlund" data-source="post: 4269630" data-attributes="member: 50304">Actually, I decide to make an actually fair comparison of both PHB's Feat options.- First I eliminated Feats made obsolete by 4th Edition giving everyone the benefit - such as Precise Shot and Eschew Materials.- Then I eliminate Feats that weren't threat-appropriate - like Spell Penetration - since that's what you did with Dodge Giants.- I removed Mounted Combat / Archery just like you did.- I also eliminated Feats that weren't level appropriate - like Meta-Magic Feats that make 1st level spells into Level 2+ spells that a 2nd level Cleric couldn't cast, multiple feats, or BAB > +1- Next I eliminated feats that a character with low Dex, Int, and Str could not access - such as the Power Attack Tree, Dodge Tree, and Combat Expertise Tree.- I erased Item Creation feats since they've been rolled into Rituals.- I removed the Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, and Armor Proficiency skills since Clerics start with these for free in 3.5- Then I removed any feat that granted a benefit only to a melee attack  - such as Weapon Focus and Blind Fighting- Then I removed any feat that grants a non-scaling +2 bonus to two skills - such as Animal Affinity and that other junk no one ever picked.I was left with the following 19 feats:Augment SummoningCombat CastingDiehardEnduranceExtra TurningGreat FortitudeImproved InitiativeIron WillLightning ReflexesMartial Weapon ProficiencyPoint Blank ShotQuick DrawRapid ReloadRunSkill FocusSpell FocusToughnessTower Shield ProficiencyTrackOf the above, I think the following would qualify under your critical criteria as "useless" for your character: Run, Track, Quick Draw, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Rapid Reload, Diehard, Endurance, and Extra Turning.Tower Shields and Combat Casting seem to be obsolete concepts in 4E.That leaves us with 8 feats from the PHB that might qualify as marginally useful for a 2nd Level Cleric - 3 of which have become more powerful in 4E and moved to the Paragon Tier (Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, and Great Fortitude).It leaves you with the same old, same old as 4E: Toughness, Improved Initiative, and Skill Focus along with Augment Summoning (though 2 round duration Summon Monster I seems pretty weak), Point Blank Shot, and Spell Focus.So I really don't think the 3.5 PHB really gave you a whole lot more "useful" options for a non-weapon character either - they just made you pay with your "option" slots for things that 4E gives you for free. Of course, 4E does the same thing taking away some of the Cleric's Armor and Shield Proficiencies too. All-in-all it looks like a wash to me.- Marty Lund</blockquote>

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