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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6842414" data-attributes="member: 42582">Thanks, that makes your particular point clearer.Also, I hadn't thought of the way that 3E also pushes away from "fail forward" and towards discrete/granular/non-scene resolution.I think there is some sort of affinity between OSR/Gygaxian dungeon-crawling play and 4e/indie play, though of course they're not the same. Just to give one example, they understand the relationship between ingame passage of time and metagame pacing/regulation of action. Look at the role of the turn in classic D&D - it's a game device then projected onto the fiction, not vice versa. The skill challenge also need to project the "turn" onto the fiction, rather than vice versa. I think this tends to cause the 2nd ed AD&D sim-ish GM or the 3E pseudo-fiction-driven GM's brain tend to fry!Monsters, and an understanding of the role of monsters as a challenge rather than an extrapolation from fictional ecology, might be another example.But here's a personal puzzle: I'm not good at dungeon-crawling either as GM or player; and I got into RM via Oriental Adventures AD&D, which is relatively heavy sim by D&D standards. So how did I stumble more-or-less self-guided onto "no myth"-ish, scene framing/GM-frames-thematic-challenge-style play?My guess is that it's the only way to go if you like story and don't like railroading.What I didn't work out on my own was "fail forward"; nor how to jettison some of the mechanical systems (esp healing, some dimensions of spell recovery, etc) that can get in the way of scene-framing. (And I think one appeal of BW to me is that it brings these things back in within the context of a scene-framing game!)</blockquote>

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