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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Eric V" data-source="post: 6470636" data-attributes="member: 6779717">Well, I didn't start with 4e; I started with AD&D and played all editions.We have converted to 5e and really like it.  When we speak about comparing editions though; our group basically concedes that 4e was better in virtually every way than 5e except in 2 deal-breakers: 1) Prep time/versatility for the DM and (especially) 2) combat length.Our group is spread out over 2 countries, so we play via Skype and Maptool.  4e started with Keep on the Shadowfell, Thunderspire Labyrinth, then Madness at Gardmore Abbey.  Some homebrew, then Demon Queen's Enclave, then we started Assault on Nightwyrm Fortress with the idea that it would lead to Moil.It just got to be too much.  Addressing point 1) Making tokens for all the monsters/NPCs was a ton of work.  I have made twice as many tokens for 5e in about half the time.  Similarly, while I love how monsters fee more individual in 4e (not "sack of hp" syndrome), the idea of prepping a dozen tokens (we use macros for all the math stuff) for 'random encounters' was a bit overkill in terms of prep.  We also didn't get bang for our buck as DMs, and that is related to...2) Combat length.  For the longest time, I couldn't understand why people said that you can't roleplay in 4e; of course you can!  Whenever you want!  What could they mean by saying that?  Then I saw the group go from level 1 to level 18...and sure enough, the roleplaying kept diminishing.  Now, 2 of my players are terrible at it, but the two who are great also "diminished" in terms of roleplaying, and I couldn't figure out why.It dawned on me that, after a long day at work, you only have so much cognitive energy available for gaming from 21:00 to 24:00 with work the next day.  And 4e demands that a lot of that energy be spent on all the wonderful tactical options available during combat.  Said combats lasting well over an hour each one, sometimes 2.  If I wanted more than one combat in a session, it meant all we did was fight.Now, it's a great tactical system, but the length of the fights stole the drama from them.  Combined with people not making quips and such during combat, it just turned into an accountancy exercise.  We love so much about 4e: The variety of classes (my fav toon was a Githzerai Avenger, and I can't really recreate her now :/ ), the balance between classes that led to the best teamwork we've seen, the tight rules that allowed us to relax and enjoy the game (I found people argued too much with vaguer rules in previous systems, and saying "I'm the DM, it's my call" doesn't always work when playing with your 2 older brothers!), the unique monsters, skill challenges (no, seriously!), rituals for non-combat stuff...and more.But it ended up not being as much fun as we got higher in levels.  I know that's a complaint a lot of people have had about previous editions, but it was different in 4e: Keeping track of all the bonuses, all the conditions, all the resistances...it was too much, especially online, and despite how awesome maptools is for tracking.  People always ended up "Oh wait, I forgot I had +5 to damage..." and it just killed the drama.So we switched to 5e, where less is more (Adv/Dis as a mechanic instead of modifiers), and we can devote more time to roleplaying.  I ran a small delve at high level (12) to see if it would slow down like  4e; it did, but not nearly as much, and a lot of it had to do with not being familiar with toons for a one-off.As a comparison: I play both Heroscape and Heroclix.  'Clix is the superior game in a lot of ways, with more complex rules, more diversity, etc.  'Scape has just enough differentiation between units to make them feel different, and plays faster and smoother.  While I like both, I never complain about a game of 'Scape, whereas a game of 'CLix can drag...In the end, 4e was like a great love that was wonderful for a while...but just didn't work out in the end over an irreconcilable issue, so we had to break up.  I'm happy with 5e.  I can see a future with 5e, and there's nothing to divide us, but...sometimes, when I am prepping a mod, I remember 4e, and wonder what might have been... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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