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4e players, why do you want 5e?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 5922236"><p>As a later-edition player, I want to see D&D continue to grow and learn from itsself. There were flaws with 3e that got fixed in 4th, but there were things that 4th didn't do well either. </p><p> </p><p></p><p>I believe the Difficulty of the game is dependent more upon the GM and the way the players want the game to run than the edition. Even with surges and high hit points, I have run some seriously brutal 4e games.</p><p></p><p></p><p>4e lacked resource management!? That's a new one on me!</p><p>What do you call deciding when to use a particular power? What do you call healing surges? </p><p>Honestly, especially for melee characters, there's a LOT more to track in 4e than previous editions.</p><p>And "balanced encounters" exist in all editions. 4e just used a different type of math to achieve it. 3.X had CR. Other editions had their own equations. I'm not sure "unbalanced" encounters would be a good thing.</p><p></p><p></p><p>There are a host of things that Democrats see as a positive that are a "drastic move away" from Traditional America. Tradition is nothing more than a set of systems that have been employed for a long time. Being good or bad is not part of it's measurement.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>You healed to full in 3e as well with a long rest. And surges as an extension of HP most certainly were HP management. Also: I'm not really sure how you "manage" HP... Choosing to be healed or not healed? You can't really choose to take damage or not.</p><p>Healing surges actually LIMITED HP far more than they expanded it, because healing surges limited HP recovery. I just finished a Pathfinder game, ONE cleric, not very optimized, could heal up 99% of all the damage dealt to us, and there was almost NO cap on her healing. Not to mention healing surges could only be used once, maybe twice by most classes during combat. </p><p>And now now, we can't ignore the flaws of previous editions in an attempt to make 4e's flaws look more grievous.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Right, because a Cleric has never been able to "Cure Light Wounds", are we talking about the same game here?</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Alright, WOTC tried something new. SOme people loved it, some people hated it. Some people hated vancian spellcasting from day 1. </p><p>I like "powers"(there were Prayers, Spells, Maneuvers, ect... really, powers if very insulting) because it eliminated the linear-quadratic problem. It also provided diversity that martial classes normally didn't have. Sure, not everyone liked it, but again, if D&D never tried anything new, it would have long since died. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, tradition is not inherently "better" as has been proved by the fact that over multiple editions spellcasters have been highly overpowered. WOTC developed a fix, a drastic fix. It <em>did</em> fix the problem, but lets face it, noone likes to get nerfed. This is a problem with Wizards in almost every game every made. It took WoW half a decade to finally bring their classes into balance. And that was with updates on a WEEKLY basis.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>4e had SSSSoD instead. SoD wasn't fun, at all. Especially when this was also one of the domains where the Caster often made everything it fought pointless and stupid. SoS wasn't fun either, losing levels, draining ability scores, all it served was to make people suck, for a long time. </p><p> </p><p></p><p>Oh no no no. DO not go "4e said make up wish lists!" 4e suggested you tell the DM the kinds of things you'd like to have, while 4e was often more explicit in some of it's player empowerment than previous editions, it didn't say "Give your players what they want." Me personally: I don't see the benefit to random treasure, inserting things into the game that have no plot value and no value to my players means I've just given them JUNK. </p><p>As for converting them to other things, I never had a single group that did this. Perhaps we didn't have the right class or weren't aware of the rules, but I never was able to convert that +1 bow into a +1 mace. </p><p></p><p>I would rather give my players things they will use, things they will enjoy, than just random junk they're going to sell.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>No, it wasn't.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>How were those beneficial tropes exactly?</p><p>4e had healbot clerics.</p><p>You sat in a swamp for 3 days trying to heal if the DM said so.</p><p>You ran out of spells, except for at-wills(oh big deal!) every single encounter.</p><p>Oh boy instant death is gone. That was so much fun! I love making throwaway characters! /sarcasm</p><p>Your were alignment restricted if the DM said you were. Core left it up to TABLE DECISIONS.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>4e isn't the perfect game, neither was 3e, but suffice to say, I want to see D&D learn and grow. And that's the key, I felt 4e was better in enough ways to warrant a switch from 3e, but I still play 3e when 4e simply won't do what I want it to. If 5e can combine the functionality of 4e, the "this is how it works, no need to ask questions of decipher rules" and the creativity of 3rd, I'm certainly going to be looking at it as my new edition.</p><p></p><p>If it can't, well I've got 2 editions I like and some houserules.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sunseeker, post: 5922236"] As a later-edition player, I want to see D&D continue to grow and learn from itsself. There were flaws with 3e that got fixed in 4th, but there were things that 4th didn't do well either. I believe the Difficulty of the game is dependent more upon the GM and the way the players want the game to run than the edition. Even with surges and high hit points, I have run some seriously brutal 4e games. 4e lacked resource management!? That's a new one on me! What do you call deciding when to use a particular power? What do you call healing surges? Honestly, especially for melee characters, there's a LOT more to track in 4e than previous editions. And "balanced encounters" exist in all editions. 4e just used a different type of math to achieve it. 3.X had CR. Other editions had their own equations. I'm not sure "unbalanced" encounters would be a good thing. There are a host of things that Democrats see as a positive that are a "drastic move away" from Traditional America. Tradition is nothing more than a set of systems that have been employed for a long time. Being good or bad is not part of it's measurement. You healed to full in 3e as well with a long rest. And surges as an extension of HP most certainly were HP management. Also: I'm not really sure how you "manage" HP... Choosing to be healed or not healed? You can't really choose to take damage or not. Healing surges actually LIMITED HP far more than they expanded it, because healing surges limited HP recovery. I just finished a Pathfinder game, ONE cleric, not very optimized, could heal up 99% of all the damage dealt to us, and there was almost NO cap on her healing. Not to mention healing surges could only be used once, maybe twice by most classes during combat. And now now, we can't ignore the flaws of previous editions in an attempt to make 4e's flaws look more grievous. Right, because a Cleric has never been able to "Cure Light Wounds", are we talking about the same game here? Alright, WOTC tried something new. SOme people loved it, some people hated it. Some people hated vancian spellcasting from day 1. I like "powers"(there were Prayers, Spells, Maneuvers, ect... really, powers if very insulting) because it eliminated the linear-quadratic problem. It also provided diversity that martial classes normally didn't have. Sure, not everyone liked it, but again, if D&D never tried anything new, it would have long since died. Again, tradition is not inherently "better" as has been proved by the fact that over multiple editions spellcasters have been highly overpowered. WOTC developed a fix, a drastic fix. It [I]did[/I] fix the problem, but lets face it, noone likes to get nerfed. This is a problem with Wizards in almost every game every made. It took WoW half a decade to finally bring their classes into balance. And that was with updates on a WEEKLY basis. 4e had SSSSoD instead. SoD wasn't fun, at all. Especially when this was also one of the domains where the Caster often made everything it fought pointless and stupid. SoS wasn't fun either, losing levels, draining ability scores, all it served was to make people suck, for a long time. Oh no no no. DO not go "4e said make up wish lists!" 4e suggested you tell the DM the kinds of things you'd like to have, while 4e was often more explicit in some of it's player empowerment than previous editions, it didn't say "Give your players what they want." Me personally: I don't see the benefit to random treasure, inserting things into the game that have no plot value and no value to my players means I've just given them JUNK. As for converting them to other things, I never had a single group that did this. Perhaps we didn't have the right class or weren't aware of the rules, but I never was able to convert that +1 bow into a +1 mace. I would rather give my players things they will use, things they will enjoy, than just random junk they're going to sell. No, it wasn't. How were those beneficial tropes exactly? 4e had healbot clerics. You sat in a swamp for 3 days trying to heal if the DM said so. You ran out of spells, except for at-wills(oh big deal!) every single encounter. Oh boy instant death is gone. That was so much fun! I love making throwaway characters! /sarcasm Your were alignment restricted if the DM said you were. Core left it up to TABLE DECISIONS. 4e isn't the perfect game, neither was 3e, but suffice to say, I want to see D&D learn and grow. And that's the key, I felt 4e was better in enough ways to warrant a switch from 3e, but I still play 3e when 4e simply won't do what I want it to. If 5e can combine the functionality of 4e, the "this is how it works, no need to ask questions of decipher rules" and the creativity of 3rd, I'm certainly going to be looking at it as my new edition. If it can't, well I've got 2 editions I like and some houserules. [/QUOTE]
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