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4e players, why do you want 5e?
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<blockquote data-quote="beej" data-source="post: 5922412" data-attributes="member: 62869"><p>One thing that really bothers me in 4E is the false sense of improvement that comes with level increases. The magic item arms-race is also connected to this issue. Yes, you're getting that bonus to attack rolls as you go from levels 1-30; but then so does the monster defenses of the creatures you face. Even the players expected it to the point where they believe that weapon expertise (which keeps your attack roll math on par with monster defense) is a feat tax.</p><p></p><p>This problem has been discussed elsewhere by different people, but in the realm of monster-player dynamics, at least, there is some sense of actual improvement in the fluff department. Sure, hitting a kobold at level 1 requires more-or-less the same raw d20 roll as hitting a githyanki at level 14, but at least you went from little, dragon-worshipping reptiles who hid in holes to pirates in space*. A personal quirk that I do as DM to instill a sense of improvement is to represent a well-known solo as a non-solo, higher level version as you go up in tiers. If a young blue dragon, all on its own, took all 5 of you to beat at level 6, it made my players happy to take down young blue dragons left and right as level 21 minions.</p><p></p><p>The problem is also apparent in the 4E skill system. From the way DM advice is written in 4E, if the DM thinks something is hard, then it should have a hard DC. In practice, I've seen this translate into balancing on an inch-long ropeline requiring a DC 19 at level 1 and a DC 26 at level 10. The DM thinks the task is "hard," after all, regardless of what level you're on. So why even bother with increasing numbers? </p><p></p><p>So far, Next looks to address this by keeping both DCs and skill numbers relatively flat. There's no need for skill DC tables that advance with PC level; if balancing on a tight rope is a DC 19 Dex check at level 1, it looks like it'll still be a DC 19 Dex check at level 10. I'm currently loving that idea.</p><p></p><p>It doesn't completely address the issue, of course. Shouldn't a level 10 rogue be somehow better at walking on a ropeline than its level 1 counterpart? Will this be adequately represented by getting more class features as you advance in level? And if so, wouldn't this result in class feature bloating, where there are too many extraneous abilities you have to dig through in your sheet to get to that one class feature that is pertinent to the situation at hand? Does this mean that to get better, I can only rely on magic boots that increase my dex modifier?</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px">* - This is why I hated the Neverwinter book. Having heroic-tier aboleths when the norm was that they were paragon tier did not make sense to me at all.</span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="beej, post: 5922412, member: 62869"] One thing that really bothers me in 4E is the false sense of improvement that comes with level increases. The magic item arms-race is also connected to this issue. Yes, you're getting that bonus to attack rolls as you go from levels 1-30; but then so does the monster defenses of the creatures you face. Even the players expected it to the point where they believe that weapon expertise (which keeps your attack roll math on par with monster defense) is a feat tax. This problem has been discussed elsewhere by different people, but in the realm of monster-player dynamics, at least, there is some sense of actual improvement in the fluff department. Sure, hitting a kobold at level 1 requires more-or-less the same raw d20 roll as hitting a githyanki at level 14, but at least you went from little, dragon-worshipping reptiles who hid in holes to pirates in space*. A personal quirk that I do as DM to instill a sense of improvement is to represent a well-known solo as a non-solo, higher level version as you go up in tiers. If a young blue dragon, all on its own, took all 5 of you to beat at level 6, it made my players happy to take down young blue dragons left and right as level 21 minions. The problem is also apparent in the 4E skill system. From the way DM advice is written in 4E, if the DM thinks something is hard, then it should have a hard DC. In practice, I've seen this translate into balancing on an inch-long ropeline requiring a DC 19 at level 1 and a DC 26 at level 10. The DM thinks the task is "hard," after all, regardless of what level you're on. So why even bother with increasing numbers? So far, Next looks to address this by keeping both DCs and skill numbers relatively flat. There's no need for skill DC tables that advance with PC level; if balancing on a tight rope is a DC 19 Dex check at level 1, it looks like it'll still be a DC 19 Dex check at level 10. I'm currently loving that idea. It doesn't completely address the issue, of course. Shouldn't a level 10 rogue be somehow better at walking on a ropeline than its level 1 counterpart? Will this be adequately represented by getting more class features as you advance in level? And if so, wouldn't this result in class feature bloating, where there are too many extraneous abilities you have to dig through in your sheet to get to that one class feature that is pertinent to the situation at hand? Does this mean that to get better, I can only rely on magic boots that increase my dex modifier? [size=1]* - This is why I hated the Neverwinter book. Having heroic-tier aboleths when the norm was that they were paragon tier did not make sense to me at all.[/size] [/QUOTE]
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