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4e Races and Classes: "Why we changed the gods"
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<blockquote data-quote="Wyrmshadows" data-source="post: 3948963" data-attributes="member: 56166"><p>This is quoted from <strong>"Why we Changed the Gods" by Matt Sernett </strong> and appears in a free PDF preview on WOTC's 4e preview page. I am quoting directly so I get it right:</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Gray">The gods presented in the 3rd Edition Player’s Handbook</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">originated in the GREYHAWK Campaign Setting. It might</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">seem odd to tell you that if you’ve been playing D&D for 10</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">or more years, but if you started playing during 3rd Edition</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">you could easily have missed the GREYHAWK setting or not</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">know much about it. GREYHAWK was the original setting</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">used by Gary Gygax for his home games. I mention that</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">because it shows how long ago those gods were designed.</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray"></span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">We didn’t move forward in 4th Edition with that pantheon</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">because its deities weren’t designed for the improved</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">experience of D&D we were forming. Also, its ties to Greyhawk</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">and its uses in 3E wouldn’t sync up with the new</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">cosmology and mythology we’ve designed to be better for</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">play. We struggled with what deities to put in the game for a</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">long time, and many factors influenced our final decisions:</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray"></span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">• We don’t want deities to be thought of as</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">omniscient and all-powerful. Omniscience and omnipotence</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">makes it difficult to use gods in adventure plots</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">or have them interact with characters.</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray"></span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">• We want epic characters to be capable of challenging</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">gods and even of becoming gods.</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray"></span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">• We wanted deities to be designed for play in the</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">D&D world. Sure, it’s realistic in a sociological sense</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">to have a deity of doorways or of agriculture, but it’s</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">hard to figure out how a cleric who worships such a</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">deity honors his god by going on adventures.</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray"></span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">• We wanted fewer, better deities. In your campaign,</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">you can have as many deities as you want, but in order to</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">design classes, a cosmology, and products that work well</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">together, we wanted a good set of deities that cover most</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">players’ needs without that pantheon being too complex</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">and cumbersome.</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray"></span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">• We wanted deities to represent the new game and</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">new vision for the D&D world.</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">For a long time we wanted to design a pantheon that</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">was wholly new, but the harder we pushed it in that</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">direction, the more it seemed like some of the deities of</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">the 3E pantheon were a good fit for the game’s needs.</span></p><p><span style="color: Gray">Thus, the pantheon is a blending of old and new.</span></p><p></p><p>Here are my thoughts...</p><p></p><p>Because the implied setting is a nameless, faceless, world that only exists for new DMs to use as a flimsy background for their campaigns, a handful of useful gods may be the best choice. Experienced DMs either homebrew their own worlds or use one of the myriad available published settings and in both cases any setting worthy of the name will have its own gods.</p><p></p><p>I have yet to meet anyone past the age of 14 who actually plays or DMs in the <em>"World of Dungeons and Dragons?"</em>, the uncharted, unnamed, undeveloped "world" that all these fluff changes represent. Because the gods of FR, Krynn, Mystara, Midnight, Midkemia, Greyhawk, Earth, Super Mario World, etc. are NOT impacted in any way by a revisioning of who the "core" gods are, I would think that who the "core" god of justice is would be largely irrelevant. </p><p></p><p>For example, FR does have a goddess of agriculture despite the fact that in the World of Dungeons and Dragons, no god or goddess who is not useful to adventurers exists. :\ Krynn has 3 gods of magic despite the fact that Corellon Larethian is assuming this position in the implied setting. Bane snatching up the tyranny portfolio from whichever Greyhawk deity once owned it does not effect Greyhawk because Greyhawk is no longer the assumed setting.</p><p></p><p>I admit to being bothered by a certain "dumbing down" of things so as to simplify everything to the point where no intellectual challenge can possibly exist. <em>"Uh...why is there a god of agriculture in an adventure game?"</em> and <em>"Uhhhh </em> (drool)....<em>more than 12 gods confuse me...make it stop WoTC, make it stop."</em> but I can understand the decision as 4e is aimed at new players and DMs and the fact that more experienced DMs and players don't need to have their "D&D experience" spoon fed to them.</p><p></p><p>I know that in my campaign Asmodeus is not a god and PCs don't challenge or ever become gods. Slaying an avatar as a climactic conclusion to a campaign, cool. Messing around with an actual deity, no way. And I do have a god of agriculture and yes, you can choose to worship her and adventure in her service. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p>Feel free to discuss. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Wyrmshadows</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Wyrmshadows, post: 3948963, member: 56166"] This is quoted from [B]"Why we Changed the Gods" by Matt Sernett [/B] and appears in a free PDF preview on WOTC's 4e preview page. I am quoting directly so I get it right: [COLOR=Gray]The gods presented in the 3rd Edition Player’s Handbook originated in the GREYHAWK Campaign Setting. It might seem odd to tell you that if you’ve been playing D&D for 10 or more years, but if you started playing during 3rd Edition you could easily have missed the GREYHAWK setting or not know much about it. GREYHAWK was the original setting used by Gary Gygax for his home games. I mention that because it shows how long ago those gods were designed. We didn’t move forward in 4th Edition with that pantheon because its deities weren’t designed for the improved experience of D&D we were forming. Also, its ties to Greyhawk and its uses in 3E wouldn’t sync up with the new cosmology and mythology we’ve designed to be better for play. We struggled with what deities to put in the game for a long time, and many factors influenced our final decisions: • We don’t want deities to be thought of as omniscient and all-powerful. Omniscience and omnipotence makes it difficult to use gods in adventure plots or have them interact with characters. • We want epic characters to be capable of challenging gods and even of becoming gods. • We wanted deities to be designed for play in the D&D world. Sure, it’s realistic in a sociological sense to have a deity of doorways or of agriculture, but it’s hard to figure out how a cleric who worships such a deity honors his god by going on adventures. • We wanted fewer, better deities. In your campaign, you can have as many deities as you want, but in order to design classes, a cosmology, and products that work well together, we wanted a good set of deities that cover most players’ needs without that pantheon being too complex and cumbersome. • We wanted deities to represent the new game and new vision for the D&D world. For a long time we wanted to design a pantheon that was wholly new, but the harder we pushed it in that direction, the more it seemed like some of the deities of the 3E pantheon were a good fit for the game’s needs. Thus, the pantheon is a blending of old and new.[/COLOR] Here are my thoughts... Because the implied setting is a nameless, faceless, world that only exists for new DMs to use as a flimsy background for their campaigns, a handful of useful gods may be the best choice. Experienced DMs either homebrew their own worlds or use one of the myriad available published settings and in both cases any setting worthy of the name will have its own gods. I have yet to meet anyone past the age of 14 who actually plays or DMs in the [I]"World of Dungeons and Dragons?"[/I], the uncharted, unnamed, undeveloped "world" that all these fluff changes represent. Because the gods of FR, Krynn, Mystara, Midnight, Midkemia, Greyhawk, Earth, Super Mario World, etc. are NOT impacted in any way by a revisioning of who the "core" gods are, I would think that who the "core" god of justice is would be largely irrelevant. For example, FR does have a goddess of agriculture despite the fact that in the World of Dungeons and Dragons, no god or goddess who is not useful to adventurers exists. :\ Krynn has 3 gods of magic despite the fact that Corellon Larethian is assuming this position in the implied setting. Bane snatching up the tyranny portfolio from whichever Greyhawk deity once owned it does not effect Greyhawk because Greyhawk is no longer the assumed setting. I admit to being bothered by a certain "dumbing down" of things so as to simplify everything to the point where no intellectual challenge can possibly exist. [I]"Uh...why is there a god of agriculture in an adventure game?"[/I] and [I]"Uhhhh [/I] (drool)....[I]more than 12 gods confuse me...make it stop WoTC, make it stop."[/I] but I can understand the decision as 4e is aimed at new players and DMs and the fact that more experienced DMs and players don't need to have their "D&D experience" spoon fed to them. I know that in my campaign Asmodeus is not a god and PCs don't challenge or ever become gods. Slaying an avatar as a climactic conclusion to a campaign, cool. Messing around with an actual deity, no way. And I do have a god of agriculture and yes, you can choose to worship her and adventure in her service. ;) Feel free to discuss. Wyrmshadows [/QUOTE]
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