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4E reminded me how much I like 3E
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<blockquote data-quote="Gothmog" data-source="post: 4418866" data-attributes="member: 317"><p>Oh good grief. Playing D&D or any game isn't about "manning up", or having "what it takes" to DM. Its about fun, pure and simple. Some folks like the complexity of 3e and enjoy mechanical system mastery, and if they do, nothing is keeping them from continuing to play that game. But a lot of folks (and I mean a LOT) over the last 8 years found 3e tedious and onerous to prep due to its stat-heavy nature, and the designers for 4e listened to those fan suggestions and made modifications based on many people's problems with 3e. That doesn't mean 4e is "dumbed down" or any such nonsesne, it means that more people now have a game system they enjoy prepping and find the work to output ratio more managable.</p><p></p><p>Yes, DMing is a responsibility, and involves a lot of thought, effort, and time. I take my DMing responsibilities seriously because I want my group to have fun and have a memorable night. A lot of us here think that our time might be better spent by considering the plot, personalities and motivations for NPCs, developing interesting locales, and painting minis/making props for the game rather than fiddling with rules minutiae that ultimately make NO difference since the BBEG or monster or whatever will be killed inside 5 rounds anyway. 4e gives us an expedient way to handle the stats and rules as well as providing more interesting tactical options, while also giving a range of values appropriate to an ecounter at a given level. If I get the same (or better) result out of 4e than I would out of 3e, with a fraction of the work, and have more time to devote to other areas of the game my group and I enjoy more, why in the hell would I go back to 3e?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>More options? Yes. More viable/better options? Nope. 3e stressed mechanical system mastery, and seemed to intentionally include traps in character generation that allowed someone who had not studied the rules in detail to make a decidedly subpar character. It was possible (and even likely) in 3e for someone who spent all his time looking up rules minutiae to make a decidedly MUCH more powerful character than a casual player who didn't put in that effort (whether due to interest or time constraints). In many cases that lead to dissatisfaction with the game on the part of the players because one PC overshadows all the others, not due to creative playing, but due to simple powergaming/munchkinism. Its also a puts a much larger workload on the DM to design encounters that challenge the overpowered PC, but doesn't simply slaughter the normal PCs. Not all 3e players did this, but I noticed a large number over the years who were so focused on the mechanical mastery that they completely lost sight of the role-playing in the game, and only thought to use options in play if they were rigidly codified or they had feats/skills/spells/buffs/magic items for them- ie. they were limiting their own play experience. If you don't have an issue with any of those things, then keep playing 3e- more power to you.</p><p></p><p>4e addressed this issue as well, and instead of rewarding mechanical system mastery, it rewards tactical and in-play mastery (much like 1e/2e did). I much prefer this approach, since it puts players on a more level playing field, but rewards those with a quick wit, problem solving skills, and who invest in the game at the table, rather than away from it. Its pretty hard to make a character who sucks in 4e, but the challenge comes in learning how to use your abilities to their best effect during play. In this way, 4e has more viable character options, and a greater variety of good play options that 3e does.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So by your own admission, you're ranting about 4e, but haven't yet read the rules or played it? All I can say is that an informed opinion is much more conducive to a debate than an uninformed one. I had reservations about 4e as well, and I tried it for 5 sessions. I'm a convert now, and there is no way I'd ever go back to 3e. Give it a shot- at the very least you broaden your horizons and find out exactly what you don't like and how it plays. At best, you've got another game to play and enjoy. You've got nothing to lose.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gothmog, post: 4418866, member: 317"] Oh good grief. Playing D&D or any game isn't about "manning up", or having "what it takes" to DM. Its about fun, pure and simple. Some folks like the complexity of 3e and enjoy mechanical system mastery, and if they do, nothing is keeping them from continuing to play that game. But a lot of folks (and I mean a LOT) over the last 8 years found 3e tedious and onerous to prep due to its stat-heavy nature, and the designers for 4e listened to those fan suggestions and made modifications based on many people's problems with 3e. That doesn't mean 4e is "dumbed down" or any such nonsesne, it means that more people now have a game system they enjoy prepping and find the work to output ratio more managable. Yes, DMing is a responsibility, and involves a lot of thought, effort, and time. I take my DMing responsibilities seriously because I want my group to have fun and have a memorable night. A lot of us here think that our time might be better spent by considering the plot, personalities and motivations for NPCs, developing interesting locales, and painting minis/making props for the game rather than fiddling with rules minutiae that ultimately make NO difference since the BBEG or monster or whatever will be killed inside 5 rounds anyway. 4e gives us an expedient way to handle the stats and rules as well as providing more interesting tactical options, while also giving a range of values appropriate to an ecounter at a given level. If I get the same (or better) result out of 4e than I would out of 3e, with a fraction of the work, and have more time to devote to other areas of the game my group and I enjoy more, why in the hell would I go back to 3e? More options? Yes. More viable/better options? Nope. 3e stressed mechanical system mastery, and seemed to intentionally include traps in character generation that allowed someone who had not studied the rules in detail to make a decidedly subpar character. It was possible (and even likely) in 3e for someone who spent all his time looking up rules minutiae to make a decidedly MUCH more powerful character than a casual player who didn't put in that effort (whether due to interest or time constraints). In many cases that lead to dissatisfaction with the game on the part of the players because one PC overshadows all the others, not due to creative playing, but due to simple powergaming/munchkinism. Its also a puts a much larger workload on the DM to design encounters that challenge the overpowered PC, but doesn't simply slaughter the normal PCs. Not all 3e players did this, but I noticed a large number over the years who were so focused on the mechanical mastery that they completely lost sight of the role-playing in the game, and only thought to use options in play if they were rigidly codified or they had feats/skills/spells/buffs/magic items for them- ie. they were limiting their own play experience. If you don't have an issue with any of those things, then keep playing 3e- more power to you. 4e addressed this issue as well, and instead of rewarding mechanical system mastery, it rewards tactical and in-play mastery (much like 1e/2e did). I much prefer this approach, since it puts players on a more level playing field, but rewards those with a quick wit, problem solving skills, and who invest in the game at the table, rather than away from it. Its pretty hard to make a character who sucks in 4e, but the challenge comes in learning how to use your abilities to their best effect during play. In this way, 4e has more viable character options, and a greater variety of good play options that 3e does. So by your own admission, you're ranting about 4e, but haven't yet read the rules or played it? All I can say is that an informed opinion is much more conducive to a debate than an uninformed one. I had reservations about 4e as well, and I tried it for 5 sessions. I'm a convert now, and there is no way I'd ever go back to 3e. Give it a shot- at the very least you broaden your horizons and find out exactly what you don't like and how it plays. At best, you've got another game to play and enjoy. You've got nothing to lose. [/QUOTE]
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