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<blockquote data-quote="GQuail" data-source="post: 2959343" data-attributes="member: 30709"><p>This has been an oddity: a genuinely interesting 4E thread. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> It' sinteresting to read people's thoughts, some of which I agree with, some of which I find patently absurd: it shows just how daunting the task of a complete makeover for the system would be. You can't please everyone in this thread with the same product, certainly.</p><p></p><p>Not wishing to pick on another poster, but I'd have to also say that Lanefan's proposed list didn't do anything for me....</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>....because it seemed to be mainly about reverting various changes 3E made from previous editions. If I wanted to play 1E, I got my books ony my RPG bookshelf already: I don't need to retrofit rolling under, d10 initiative, limited multiclassing and "no wizards casting in melee" into 3E to accomplish what downloading OSRIC would do instead. ;-)</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>I've got to say, I don't have any huge problems with 3.X. My edits would be more 3.75 tweaks than a real 4E, if truth be told, and thusly not very good for the WotC accounts. ;-) I would personally be quite keen on seeing the following stuff, though:</p><p></p><p>* I've never been totally impressed with the power level of the Sorcerer, and the addition of new classes like the Favoured Soul, Warmage, Beguiler and Dread Necromancer in splat books cements it for me. I like the idea of the "spontaneous wizard", and in paticular it's a good beginner spellcaster class, but I think it's a class for whom the power curve should be looked at. I might not go as far as "Add the Warlock in next edition", but I would certainly be considering applications thereof. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p>* Attack sof Oppertunity aren't that bad, really, but they're a rule that's constantly a problem for some players. You either get them or you don't, and without them D&D combat works a lot differently. A new edition should preserve them, but look at ways to explain them better or simply their execution.</p><p>* On a similar vein, some elements of the D20 system are just a bit obtuse in practice. Turn Undead is a biggie for me, which goes against the general "D20, roll high" principle of the system. Grapple checks also tend to involve me having to look up the section on the book to verify the exact events and options. I think these are areas where some work could be used to make things more intuitive.</p><p>* Epic progressions and the magic change in the game rules after level 20 needs to be looked at, since it's something of a mechanical gearchange at an arbitrary number. </p><p>* Prestige classes and templates remain some of my favourite ideas of 3.X: but the way in which the former are used needs to be considered in the new edition: they mutated from "DMs build unique ones for campaign roles" in the 3.0 DMG to the current principle of "Hey kids, buy this book to get 20 new prestige classes" we have now. Templates should perhaps have more representatives in the MM, though most of the fantasy archetypes are already covered.</p><p>* LA remains something of an issue for me. I'd like to see ECL rules race tidied up a bit to make non-standard races them a more genuinely balanced option: as it stands, they sometimes can be astounding powerful combos of SLA and ability mods, other times dubiously expensive collections of monster hit die forever languishing in BAB and caster level.</p><p>* Maybe related to the previous, but: a Base Caster Bonus stat for classes, rather than the straight "Caster level=class level" system, might be worth including, if only as an optional rule in the DMG. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Like I said, no-one else would be happy with this list, or any other that's not their own: I won't take it personally if you think it's rubbish. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GQuail, post: 2959343, member: 30709"] This has been an oddity: a genuinely interesting 4E thread. :-) It' sinteresting to read people's thoughts, some of which I agree with, some of which I find patently absurd: it shows just how daunting the task of a complete makeover for the system would be. You can't please everyone in this thread with the same product, certainly. Not wishing to pick on another poster, but I'd have to also say that Lanefan's proposed list didn't do anything for me.... ....because it seemed to be mainly about reverting various changes 3E made from previous editions. If I wanted to play 1E, I got my books ony my RPG bookshelf already: I don't need to retrofit rolling under, d10 initiative, limited multiclassing and "no wizards casting in melee" into 3E to accomplish what downloading OSRIC would do instead. ;-) --- I've got to say, I don't have any huge problems with 3.X. My edits would be more 3.75 tweaks than a real 4E, if truth be told, and thusly not very good for the WotC accounts. ;-) I would personally be quite keen on seeing the following stuff, though: * I've never been totally impressed with the power level of the Sorcerer, and the addition of new classes like the Favoured Soul, Warmage, Beguiler and Dread Necromancer in splat books cements it for me. I like the idea of the "spontaneous wizard", and in paticular it's a good beginner spellcaster class, but I think it's a class for whom the power curve should be looked at. I might not go as far as "Add the Warlock in next edition", but I would certainly be considering applications thereof. :-) * Attack sof Oppertunity aren't that bad, really, but they're a rule that's constantly a problem for some players. You either get them or you don't, and without them D&D combat works a lot differently. A new edition should preserve them, but look at ways to explain them better or simply their execution. * On a similar vein, some elements of the D20 system are just a bit obtuse in practice. Turn Undead is a biggie for me, which goes against the general "D20, roll high" principle of the system. Grapple checks also tend to involve me having to look up the section on the book to verify the exact events and options. I think these are areas where some work could be used to make things more intuitive. * Epic progressions and the magic change in the game rules after level 20 needs to be looked at, since it's something of a mechanical gearchange at an arbitrary number. * Prestige classes and templates remain some of my favourite ideas of 3.X: but the way in which the former are used needs to be considered in the new edition: they mutated from "DMs build unique ones for campaign roles" in the 3.0 DMG to the current principle of "Hey kids, buy this book to get 20 new prestige classes" we have now. Templates should perhaps have more representatives in the MM, though most of the fantasy archetypes are already covered. * LA remains something of an issue for me. I'd like to see ECL rules race tidied up a bit to make non-standard races them a more genuinely balanced option: as it stands, they sometimes can be astounding powerful combos of SLA and ability mods, other times dubiously expensive collections of monster hit die forever languishing in BAB and caster level. * Maybe related to the previous, but: a Base Caster Bonus stat for classes, rather than the straight "Caster level=class level" system, might be worth including, if only as an optional rule in the DMG. Like I said, no-one else would be happy with this list, or any other that's not their own: I won't take it personally if you think it's rubbish. :p [/QUOTE]
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