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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4068679" data-attributes="member: 4937">kennew142: I would really appreciate it if you actually read and responded to what I wrote.Yes, I have.  At length.  I'm many things, but concise is not one of them.  None, but this is not in fact relevant to anything I said.  It would only be relevant if I had claimed that 4E rogues would have no out of combat ability, and I can't imagine anyone thinking that I claimed that.  Yet, here we are.Define 'nerf'.  I believe you are using a hidden absolute here.  No 3E core class presents the option to forgo all hit points, BAB, improved saving throws, and other combat related abilities in exchange superior out of combat abilities.  It would not be objectively bad design to provide such a class, but it might be useless given the premise of most campaigns.Yes.Ok, I'll give you a hint: 'completely'. I never asserted that.  I asserted that there would be no non-combat centric build.You've probably made that statement four times in this thread so far.  I'm beginning to think you don't know what the term means.I never claimed that the previous edition was just as bad, or worse.  In fact I explicitly stated that I thought the new edition was worse.  Hense, by compounding an existing flaw, a step backward because 3E had done a good job of reducing the problem compared to prior editions.No, I don't.  That phrase 'straw man argument' that you are so fond of.  Perhaps you should look it up.Or anything I actually wrote.Ahem.</blockquote>

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