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<blockquote data-quote="Gothmog" data-source="post: 4189814" data-attributes="member: 317">Hey Wolf, I remember we used to talk about some stuff like this years ago, but for me what finally broke my enjoyment of 3.x was how frontloaded the rules and the rules assumptions were to playing the game.&nbsp; When 3.x came out, I loved it- the options were new and shiny, and it was so different than anything else out there.&nbsp; With time (about 2 years) the shiny faded, and I quit seeing 3.x through beer goggles and instead witnessed its full hideousness.&nbsp; 3.x didn't allow me to run the kind of games I wanted to, and in order to try to shove the square 3.x peg into the hole, I had to shave off and radically modify the rules to accomodate my group's gaming style.&nbsp; Thats a metric buttload of work, especially when there are other systems that do fit my style better with MUCH less work.However, getting people to switch from D20 or 3.x games can be like pulling teeth, especially if they have become accustomed to the degree of customization and power creep inherent to the systems.&nbsp; I've met lots of people who I'd call D20 Nazis- people who refuse to play any game that isn't in some way D20-based.&nbsp; So we kept playing some D20/3.x games and I posted here for advice/ideas, and because ENWorld is one of the most friendly and civil communities on the net.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> With time, I got my group to try Savage Worlds and WHFRP2, and after a couple sessions so they could get the feel of them, we universally decided to stick with them.&nbsp; Yes, both of those systems play faster and looser with the rules, and leave more to DM fiat, but that works for us- it frees up the constraints we felt under D20 games.&nbsp; Now, I mostly try to post positive things about SW, WHFRP2, and Dark Heresy, and stay out of the D20 threads as a detractor, simply because hating on/criticizing something is rarely constructive.&nbsp; D20/3.x is a perfectly suitable system for some people, but for us is was a nightmare.&nbsp; 4E looks to be returning to the general feel of the 1e/2e era, where everything doesn't have to be codified, and the rules and rules assumptions are not the focus on the game.&nbsp; This is a big plus for me, so I'm cautiously optomistic about 4E.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Gothmog, post: 4189814, member: 317"] Hey Wolf, I remember we used to talk about some stuff like this years ago, but for me what finally broke my enjoyment of 3.x was how frontloaded the rules and the rules assumptions were to playing the game. When 3.x came out, I loved it- the options were new and shiny, and it was so different than anything else out there. With time (about 2 years) the shiny faded, and I quit seeing 3.x through beer goggles and instead witnessed its full hideousness. 3.x didn't allow me to run the kind of games I wanted to, and in order to try to shove the square 3.x peg into the hole, I had to shave off and radically modify the rules to accomodate my group's gaming style. Thats a metric buttload of work, especially when there are other systems that do fit my style better with MUCH less work. However, getting people to switch from D20 or 3.x games can be like pulling teeth, especially if they have become accustomed to the degree of customization and power creep inherent to the systems. I've met lots of people who I'd call D20 Nazis- people who refuse to play any game that isn't in some way D20-based. So we kept playing some D20/3.x games and I posted here for advice/ideas, and because ENWorld is one of the most friendly and civil communities on the net. :) With time, I got my group to try Savage Worlds and WHFRP2, and after a couple sessions so they could get the feel of them, we universally decided to stick with them. Yes, both of those systems play faster and looser with the rules, and leave more to DM fiat, but that works for us- it frees up the constraints we felt under D20 games. Now, I mostly try to post positive things about SW, WHFRP2, and Dark Heresy, and stay out of the D20 threads as a detractor, simply because hating on/criticizing something is rarely constructive. D20/3.x is a perfectly suitable system for some people, but for us is was a nightmare. 4E looks to be returning to the general feel of the 1e/2e era, where everything doesn't have to be codified, and the rules and rules assumptions are not the focus on the game. This is a big plus for me, so I'm cautiously optomistic about 4E. [/QUOTE]

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