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<blockquote data-quote="Mephistopheles" data-source="post: 4782031" data-attributes="member: 4460">They got rid of some of them, but some are still save or die; the two saves or die mechanic is still a save or die mechanic. Without modifiers you've got 11 in 20 chances of passing the first save, roughly 4 in 5 chances of failing the first save and then passing the second, and roughly 1 in 5 chances of failing both saves.When considering those numbers, though, I think the style of 4E combat also needs to be considered: monsters take a lot of killing and players are likely to be hit with a lot more of the 4E style save or die effects over the course of the battle.I've yet to come across any of these kinds of attacks as a player in 4E, but I imagine the two saves or die system will have a more tense feel in play. If you fail your first save you've got to stew on whether or not the next roll is going to be in your favour until your next turn - still just as arbitrary as before, but more of a build up than a single roll that's over and done with in a few seconds.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mephistopheles, post: 4782031, member: 4460"] They got rid of some of them, but some are still save or die; the two saves or die mechanic is still a save or die mechanic. Without modifiers you've got 11 in 20 chances of passing the first save, roughly 4 in 5 chances of failing the first save and then passing the second, and roughly 1 in 5 chances of failing both saves. When considering those numbers, though, I think the style of 4E combat also needs to be considered: monsters take a lot of killing and players are likely to be hit with a lot more of the 4E style save or die effects over the course of the battle. I've yet to come across any of these kinds of attacks as a player in 4E, but I imagine the two saves or die system will have a more tense feel in play. If you fail your first save you've got to stew on whether or not the next roll is going to be in your favour until your next turn - still just as arbitrary as before, but more of a build up than a single roll that's over and done with in a few seconds. [/QUOTE]

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