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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4130235" data-attributes="member: 4937">I'm not sure I'm primarily claiming strengths for 3e.  I don't see this as a binary, 'either you must think 4e is God's gift to gaming and 3e sucks' or else 'you must think that 3e is the one true edition and that 4e is a pile of crap'.  I don't feel that I have to compare 4e or 3e to anything when criticizing them.  I was plenty critical of 3e's diplomacy rules before I had anything to compare them to based simply on the observed results and extrapolating out the worst case.  I'd likewise be critical of the 4e skill system (or at least as much of it as I've seen) even without 3e.  Unlike the developers, I don't feel the need to trash 3e in order to praise 4e, nor do I feel the need to praise 3e in order to express my displeasure with the chosen direction of 4e.  I can trash or praise quite independently.I haven't even mentioned 3e in a while, and back when I was comparing 3e and 4e explicitly I was comparing 4e favorably to 3e, so I'm not sure what prompted your comment.  But, just because 3e is broke doesn't mean I'm forced to think that 4e is fixed. One thing I do do alot of is point out that 4e hasn't in fact invented the wheel.  Far too often the designers (or posters) make assertions about how 3e was played that are sterotypical, and don't necessarily reflect how the game was played even as far back as 1e.  Far too many examples have the premise that 3e DM's were bad DM's and 4e DM's are going to be great ones merely because they've changed systems.  As I said earlier, the 4e design team deserves alot of credit for pushing dynamic environments, complex multi-wave encounters, DM creativity, interesting terrain, proactive villains, traps as part of an encounter, regular use of skill challenges, and so forth.  Whether they'll succeed in improving DMing out there remains to be seen.  I do think that they are making a game which is somewhat easier on novice DMs than prior editions.  I don't think however the 4e invented any of these things, don't often see how the new mechanics facillitate them, and I resent the whole 'in 3e you couldn't have X...', when I've had 'X' since 1st edition.  Telling me how great 4e is for allowing me to do something I already can do is like trying to sell me a new blender when my old one works fine.  Show me what it will blend that my old one won't that I'm actually going to want to do.  Don't try to pretend you invented the milk shake.</blockquote>

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