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Message: <blockquote data-quote="LostSoul" data-source="post: 4133161" data-attributes="member: 386">Nope, it doesn't seem metagamey to me.  I may have a high tolerance for that sort of thing, as long as it's backed up by description.Anyway, I agree with you - I'd rather the players were able to initate skill challenges themselves, setting their own goals.  As Mallus points out above, it will require agreement from the group.  Players who are not interested in the goal of the challenge might just give it a pass (though, XP...).  I also see a lot of groups allowing players to initiate skill challenges in most situations, with DM approval.I think the text will say that the authority to initiate lies with the DM.Maybe I should have said "resolves" instead of "interacts with".  That is a difference between editions; skill checks in 3e don't resolve situations.  They might, but they might not.  It's not explicit.I think that ill-conceived plans will show up in two ways:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Failure on a skill challenge - because of the difficulty of the challenge, or the PC's abilities are not suited to that challenge.  The suitability of the plan is variable until success or failure is determined.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Play developing into a situation where the skill challenge the PCs have to face isn't one the PCs are built to handle.  e.g. A party with few or low social skills on a diplomatic mission; a party built for brute force and not stealth trying to sneak; a party with lots of street-smarts but little academic knowledge trying to research ancient secrets; etc.</li> </ul>I think that telling the players "Searching in the pantry isn't going to help" is fine - otherwise you end up with "pixel bitching".  (Hell, I'd say, "The murder weapon isn't in the pantry, it's in the kitchen.  Want to search there?")Or, you could use the results of the skill check to colour description.  Success?  "You search the pantry, and you don't find the murder weapon.  Frustrated, you head to the kitchen to get a cold drink.  When you open the freezer to get some ice, you spot a glint of steel.  It's the murder weapon!"That problem doesn't exist with the skill challenge in 4e; if Search isn't going to help, the DM will tell you Search is an inappropriate skill to use.  Or so I imagine.That's what the rules say!  Don't blame me, I didn't write them. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />That's cool.  I don't think we're talking about personal home games, just what's in the rules.  (i.e. That's not RAW but would make a good house rule)It's true in the general case.  A Climb check will determine how well/how fast you climb the wall.  If that's your goal, great, it will resolve that.  What it won't resolve, however, is if you can Escape from Sembia by climbing the rooftops - the DM does that.  Or if you pass the test of manhood of the Bear Tribe - the DM does that.The skill challenge sets that explicit goal: Climb the rocky cliffs of doom and pass the Bear Tribe's test of manhood.  Now we know, because it's explicit, that my Climb check is going to contribute to success in that goal.Ways to handle this that I can think of right now:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The DM says that a Theivery check to pick the door is not going to contribute to success (because the party will be found missing), so he doesn't allow the roll.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Whether or not the PCs are discovered missing in time is variable, and could be a result of success/failure on this single skill check.  A success: the PCs slip out between guard breaks.  A failure: they're spotted trying to open the door, and the alarm is raised.  (Or, in a neat way to handle "PCs are cool even if their rolls suck", the door is picked but they are found missing and the alarm goes out.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The DM says, "You don't need to roll for that - you just pick the lock.  It won't help, though, because you'll be discovered missing and the alarm will be raised.  What are you going to try out now?"</li> </ul>I do think that, when you get down into the round-by-round grid level, the problems I'm talking about go away.  I don't think skill challenges are meant to replace that kind of play; but I don't think a lot of situations can be resolved that way.  Do you really want to track the init, movement, and action for each and every guard in the dunjon each round?</blockquote>

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