D&D 4E 4E: Talent trees, class features or both?

[Crashy75]

I think/hope they will use both. Talent trees are great for customizing your character while "static" abilities will ensure that each you are still capable in your role. That would allow a little leeway in talent variety (rather than having to ensure that every talent from a "defender" makes him a better defender for example). That way we can have our roles and customize too.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If they're doing talent trees, I hope they make them more interesting at low levels than a lot of the D20 Modern snooze fest trees.

I really like D20 Modern, but I totally agree - the talents are pretty boring (and some are also seriously underpowered or more complicated to use than they need to be)

I think Star Wars Saga Edition has a lot of good talents that have a "good feel".

But I must admit I am not sure that I really want all class abilities be in talents.
Talents are great for the experienced gamer, but a few proscribed abilities make it a lot easier to pick up a class and understand what it does - just by looking at the class feature table, without ever reading the full description or even playing it a few sessions.

So, in the end I hope for a fair mix of both.

 

[Jack99]

I think there will be talent trees AND core dependable abilities.

Like Talents Versus trained abilities in WoW.

I dont think they comparison holds up, but whatever . You see, there are no core abilities that you have to take in WoW (more or less). All skills and abilities are purchased from a trainer, you dont have to though. The only onces you cant avoid, is your autoattack, the first 2 spells and 1 class definining ability. All but the autoattack is useless after just a few levels, so...

With that said, I agree with the basic idea of some core abilities that all members of the same class should have, with the rest of their abilities coming from talent trees, making each class the same, yet different.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

I think there will be talent trees AND core dependable abilities.

That's the impression I've been getting also.

 

[parcival42]

I'm thinking that characters will receive talents and feats every other level, like in SWSE, and that standard class features will be become things of the past. But, I believe that the "power sources" that every class gets will kinda fill in the gaps left by the removal of the standard class features. I would think that a first level character will receive a feat (for being 1st level, perhaps a bonus feat for being a human, if they keep that), a Talent (from their 1st class level) and what ever power comes from the class's power source, (i.e. spells, martial strikes, skill tricks, etc.). I would think you gain something from your class's power source at every level, since they've said that there are 30 spell levels (well, at least 25), and I'm guessing the same for the other class's power sources.

So,
Talents at first and every odd level.
Feats at 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc., plus at second and every even level.
"Powers" from class power source at every level.

I'd be okay with that I think, depending on what the powers were capable of and how many you'd receive.

Any thoughts?

 

[Sadrik]

I hope they give class features at 1st level only. The class features would be things like: access arcane spells, access martial maneuvers, access divine spells.

Outside of that there should be trees of talents based on the three "areas" of character development (1-10, 11-20, 21-30). Also each "area" should have an improved version of itself.

To follow in line with making the characters better managed as far as options available at high level. Characters should not start with 1 class feature and then wind up with 15 or 30 at 30th level. I think they should start with 5 and wind up with 10! But through out those 30 levels they can switch out their talents for different or improved versions of talents.

Anyone else think that is the way they should go?

 

[WayneLigon]

If I had to guess, I'd think they'd do both. Folding class abilities into the talent tree would create too many instances where you'd have the situation of 'it appears I have the illusion of choice but really to make the best of my chosen class, I have to take x', with x being what would normally have been a class ability.

 

[Just Another User]

I really like D20 Modern, but I totally agree - the talents are pretty boring (and some are also seriously underpowered or more complicated to use than they need to be)

the "problem" (note: it is not really a problem) is that D20 modern don't have a specific ambientation/setting or even genre, it can be played as a horror, sci-fi, spy, investigation, cops & robbers or any other knid of modern game or combination of, and with this premise it is not easy to come up with flavourful names/descriptions without risk to limit the game. Something that is appropriate for a "Miami Vice" game could not work for a "night of the living dead" game

I think Star Wars Saga Edition has a lot of good talents that have a "good feel".

And, as you can easily note SWSE is as far as generic as you can get. Case in point.

But I must admit I am not sure that I really want all class abilities be in talents.
Talents are great for the experienced gamer, but a few proscribed abilities make it a lot easier to pick up a class and understand what it does - just by looking at the class feature table, without ever reading the full description or even playing it a few sessions.

So, in the end I hope for a fair mix of both.

Persnally if they go with generic classes and only talents like D20 modern I would be happy.
Oc course I'm sure that will not.

 

[jonrog1]

I think the D20Modern blandness/power issues to a great deal arose from a design decision that made sense at the time but turned out to be flawed -- classes based on IDENTITY rather than FUNCTION. Regardless of how you build characters or even NPC's, they interact with the rule system when they attempt to do something, or serve their function in the game. This is why most Modern games don't really fly until you've accumulated enough levels, and therefore enough talents and feat, to define your role in the game world.

This is something ALTERNITY had pretty dead on -- four classes, infinitely customizable, but you were choosing combat spec (straight hitter)/freelance (tricky combat guy)/ Expert /Diplomat. True20's built on the same method -- as is, before the avalanche of crunch, basic D&D.

This is one of the reasons I like the new monster design system, btw. It's engineered to more efficiently interact with their function in the game rather than some abstract consistent system.