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<blockquote data-quote="Mercule" data-source="post: 4131158" data-attributes="member: 5100">I said &quot;crunch, not fluff&quot; but what I really would have liked is &quot;maybe crunch, but definitely not fluff&quot;.&nbsp; Of course, I never took the Great Wheel as more than a guideline and Sigil was stillborn, IMO.&nbsp; I don't remember the Great Wheel in BECMI, but I do remember the spheres (Entropy, Energy, Thought, Matter, and ?Time).&nbsp; Likewise, I remember when the plane of Shadow was tied to each specific material plane, rather than tying together the multiverse -- which was the job of the astral.Crunch-wise, BECMI had &quot;elf&quot; as a class, not a race.&nbsp; And clerics haven't always had 9th level spells -- or spells at 1st level.&nbsp; Illusionists used to be a separate class from magic-user/wizard.&nbsp; They also had their own spell list that overlapped the wizard, rather than being just a subset (in this way, 4e may end up being a throw-back, from the sound of things).&nbsp; And I don't think having at-will spells for wizards (or a magic missile that can miss) is any more significant a change than the priestly spheres in 2e.&nbsp; For that matter, 1e clerics who followed a demigod couldn't get higher than 5th level spells (IIRC -- I know there was a restriction).Powers for fighters is no bigger change than adding in feats and/or skills.&nbsp; Heck, if they'd dropped feats, it could be said that martial (and some other) powers grew out of feats the way skills grew out of non-weapon proficiencies.&nbsp; The big deal is that they are intentionally increasing symmetry in 4e (wizards have powers, fighters have powers, can we use a similar system to track them?).And, there are some crunch-supported fluff that changed pretty dramatically.&nbsp; Demi-human level limits, &quot;name level&quot;, and overall monster difficulty in 1e strongly indicated that anything above 10th level (and 5th level spells) were extremely unusual.&nbsp; The ranger went from a tough border guard with a chip on his shoulder to a ambidextrous skirmisher and archer with a religious tie to nature.&nbsp; Elves couldn't be raised or resurrected in 1e because they didn't have souls.&nbsp; And I'm still trying to figure out why 3e clerics channel positive/negative energy, rather than the power of their god.Finally, there a few things that are non-changes in 4e, regardless of perception.&nbsp; Square-based measurements just replaced inch-based measurements.&nbsp; Neither is &quot;more wargamey&quot;.&nbsp; Today's wargamers just prefer grids to tape measures.So, no.&nbsp; I don't think fluff has changed more significantly.&nbsp; Quite the opposite -- it's always changed quite a bit both during and between editions.Without the crunch in front of me, I can't say for sure.&nbsp; What I've heard, though, makes me think 4e is a significant change -- along the lines of BECMI vs. 1e or 2e vs. 3e, rather than 1e vs. 2e, Holmes vs. BECMI, or 3.0 vs. 3.5.&nbsp; But, I don't think it'll be significantly greater in scope of change than those.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mercule, post: 4131158, member: 5100"] I said "crunch, not fluff" but what I really would have liked is "maybe crunch, but definitely not fluff". Of course, I never took the Great Wheel as more than a guideline and Sigil was stillborn, IMO. I don't remember the Great Wheel in BECMI, but I do remember the spheres (Entropy, Energy, Thought, Matter, and ?Time). Likewise, I remember when the plane of Shadow was tied to each specific material plane, rather than tying together the multiverse -- which was the job of the astral. Crunch-wise, BECMI had "elf" as a class, not a race. And clerics haven't always had 9th level spells -- or spells at 1st level. Illusionists used to be a separate class from magic-user/wizard. They also had their own spell list that overlapped the wizard, rather than being just a subset (in this way, 4e may end up being a throw-back, from the sound of things). And I don't think having at-will spells for wizards (or a [i]magic missile[/i] that can miss) is any more significant a change than the priestly spheres in 2e. For that matter, 1e clerics who followed a demigod couldn't get higher than 5th level spells (IIRC -- I know there was a restriction). Powers for fighters is no bigger change than adding in feats and/or skills. Heck, if they'd dropped feats, it could be said that martial (and some other) powers grew out of feats the way skills grew out of non-weapon proficiencies. The big deal is that they are intentionally increasing symmetry in 4e (wizards have powers, fighters have powers, can we use a similar system to track them?). And, there are some crunch-supported fluff that changed pretty dramatically. Demi-human level limits, "name level", and overall monster difficulty in 1e strongly indicated that anything above 10th level (and 5th level spells) were extremely unusual. The ranger went from a tough border guard with a chip on his shoulder to a ambidextrous skirmisher and archer with a religious tie to nature. Elves couldn't be [i]raised[/i] or [i]resurrected[/i] in 1e because they didn't have souls. And I'm still trying to figure out why 3e clerics channel positive/negative energy, rather than the power of their god. Finally, there a few things that are non-changes in 4e, regardless of perception. Square-based measurements just replaced inch-based measurements. Neither is "more wargamey". Today's wargamers just prefer grids to tape measures. So, no. I don't think fluff has changed more significantly. Quite the opposite -- it's always changed quite a bit both during and between editions. Without the crunch in front of me, I can't say for sure. What I've heard, though, makes me think 4e is a significant change -- along the lines of BECMI vs. 1e or 2e vs. 3e, rather than 1e vs. 2e, Holmes vs. BECMI, or 3.0 vs. 3.5. But, I don't think it'll be significantly greater in scope of change than those. [/QUOTE]

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