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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 4089157" data-attributes="member: 7635">Tell me how 1e and 2e facilitated a fighter trying to listen at a door. Or a wizard trying to sneak quietly, past a guard. Or a cleric to tumble. The answer came back to one of two answers a.) You can't or b.) I'll create some ad-hoc rule to allow it.To whit: there as a non-weapon proficiency in the Complete Book of Humanoids called Hiding. It was Int with -1 penalty. If you made the check, you were hidden. A first level wizard with a 18 int had to roll under a 17 to succeed it (85% success rate) while a first level thief with an 18 dex has a max of 50% (base 5, +10 for dex, +5 no armor, +30 discretionary points [half of your starting]). Which was a better deal? Now, Lets say I want to play a cowardly wizard that casts a spell and hides from the baddies. My options are: a.) I can't. There is no real rule for a wizard hiding in combat. Suck it up. b.) I take the NWP, but reduce the thief's worth in the process c.) be a wizard/thief, something completely against my PC concept, in order to gain HiS or d.) let the DM decide some alternative method that works without screwing the thief or breaking the wizard class. No matter how you cut that cake, the wizard or the thief is going to end up on the short end of the stick. 3e and 4e have created options for my cowardly wizard; Hide/Stealth can be taken as a cross-class/untrained skill, so my wizard can hide without showing up the rogue. To me, that's creating role-playing opportunities, not diminishing them. We are looking at 4e through a tunnel; The Delve PCs are designed to be combat machines with no personality because thats what the delve IS. They are 30 minute disposable PCs. They don't exist in a larger world. None of them are even high enough level to have utility abilities (those come at 2nd, see rogue/tumble). Trying to paint 4e as non-RP friendly based on a delve is like calling a computer nothing but violence simulator because the first time you saw someone use one, they were playing Doom III. In the end, I'm sure 4e will support role-playing. If I could RP with legos when I was 10, I can RP with 4e now...</blockquote>

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