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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 4785158" data-attributes="member: 2067">Those are all variations on the &quot;damage + effect&quot; formula, though. &quot;Damage + heal&quot; and &quot;damage + buff&quot; isn't as significant a choice as &quot;damage, or buff, or scry, or heal?&quot; Likewise, &quot;hit one guy or hit many&quot; isn't as significant a choice as &quot;deal damage, or fly, or teleport, or buff, or dispel.&quot; There is variation, as Storminator points out. This variation just isn't nearly as significant, and therefore isn't nearly as meaningful, as it was in 3e (something multiple power-source mechanics helped encourage). It's all variation on the &quot;damage + effect&quot; formula, still contained within the &quot;daily/encounter/at-will&quot; resource management scheme, and still only capable of being used within the existing action economy....etc.It's not a holistic good, but it's part of that whole &quot;dumbing down&quot;/&quot;videogame&quot;/&quot;too simple&quot; complaint against 4e, and part of why that has some weight behind it. Any game, at it's core, is about acquiring whatever skill leads to success in that game. &quot;Fun&quot; is in learning and applying this skill. Different mechanics enrich a game because they allow different kinds of skills and different kinds of players to access it. 4e limits this. It makes it more simple. Like turning all the burger joints in to McDonald's, this has some good results, and some bad results. As the Slow Food movement can attest to, some people like things a little more complicated, a little less clinical, a little more interesting. I'm one of those that think 4e goes a little too far. I think there's a middle ground that mitigates the problems while having many of the same benefits. The &quot;minigames&quot; are the same game, really, just different ways of playing that game. They aren't very different from each other.Fireball, I don't think, was ever the problem with 3e spellcasters. But even then, there were variations between wizard-fireballs (prepared, in advance, when needed) and sorcerer-fireballs (spammed at everything spontaneously) that were significant in play, in ways that the current system does totally lack.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 4785158, member: 2067"] Those are all variations on the "damage + effect" formula, though. "Damage + heal" and "damage + buff" isn't as significant a choice as "damage, or buff, or scry, or heal?" Likewise, "hit one guy or hit many" isn't as significant a choice as "deal damage, or fly, or teleport, or buff, or dispel." There is variation, as Storminator points out. This variation just isn't nearly as significant, and therefore isn't nearly as meaningful, as it was in 3e (something multiple power-source mechanics helped encourage). It's all variation on the "damage + effect" formula, still contained within the "daily/encounter/at-will" resource management scheme, and still only capable of being used within the existing action economy....etc. It's not a holistic good, but it's part of that whole "dumbing down"/"videogame"/"too simple" complaint against 4e, and part of why that has some weight behind it. Any game, at it's core, is about acquiring whatever skill leads to success in that game. "Fun" is in learning and applying this skill. Different mechanics enrich a game because they allow different kinds of skills and different kinds of players to access it. 4e limits this. It makes it more simple. Like turning all the burger joints in to McDonald's, this has some good results, and some bad results. As the Slow Food movement can attest to, some people like things a little more complicated, a little less clinical, a little more [I]interesting[/I]. I'm one of those that think 4e goes a little too far. I think there's a middle ground that mitigates the problems while having many of the same benefits. The "minigames" are the same game, really, just different ways of playing that game. They aren't very different from each other. Fireball, I don't think, was ever the problem with 3e spellcasters. But even then, there were variations between wizard-fireballs (prepared, in advance, when needed) and sorcerer-fireballs (spammed at everything spontaneously) that were significant in play, in ways that the current system does totally lack. [/QUOTE]

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