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4e: the new paradigm
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<blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 4110356" data-attributes="member: 5143"><p>Personally, it ruins my experience more when people are falling asleep at the table since this round of combat will be exactly the same as the round before it except for the wizard. Which is what happens 90% of the time in 3.5e.</p><p></p><p>"Oh, you mean you are readying an action to attack the next enemy that becomes prone? Then you are waiting for an enemy to provoke an AOO from you with your spiked chain and then tripping them, getting a free attack due to Improved Trip and then hitting them again with your ready action? I didn't see that coming. Wait, I did...you've been doing it every round of combat for 5 levels now."</p><p></p><p>It might have been. And it works. I have yet to see another suggestion that actually balances the classes that is still "realistic".</p><p></p><p>Then suggest an implementation that fixes it without the "artificial" nature of these rules. One that ensures that the fighter(no matter how powergamey the player or how much role playing focused the player) does something different and interesting in each round of combat. While also making sure that the wizard doesn't have more options available to him than the fighter and that the options available to both are of equal value to the combat. Also make sure that all of the classes can contribute equally to a combat.</p><p></p><p>However, you must make sure that a group of characters still runs low on resources after a while to make sure you don't break realism too much and keep an element of resource management. However, you want each class to play the resource game as much as the others. So, you can't set the limit of a group to continue based on Cleric or Wizard spells.</p><p></p><p>But, you also want to make sure that the group is encouraged to fight multiple encounters per day and aren't able to blow all their resources in one combat.</p><p></p><p>Say what you will about the 4e system, but it accomplishes all of these goals. And at the end of the day, I'm sitting down to play a game with some friends. So, if the game portion of D&D works better then it is better for us.</p><p></p><p>I think that's where the main difference in people comes from. If I was sitting down to simulate some sort of reality then I would be perfectly willing to accept the fact that I, as the fighter, don't know how to cast spells...and magic is powerful so I should expect to be weak and have to do the same things over and over again. That's just the way life works. You don't always get to be the most powerful.</p><p></p><p>However, when I sit down to play a game with my friends, I expect the game to be fair to everyone. Even if it isn't "realistic" for fairness to exist. I think this is pretty much exactly what was said in the Q&A with the designers listed in the OP. When I sit down it's to evoke a story where a small group of adventurers risks their lives against all odds and defeats the bad guys after having a bunch of cool and interesting battles with a lot of tension.</p><p></p><p>My goal isn't to simulate anything at all. It is to play a fun game. A game which has fun rules.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure that a narrative discussion of the events of a 4e would hurt believability at all. Your concern is with the fact that the players know the game rules.</p><p></p><p>I mean, as I pointed out in another thread, if I wrote a story that said:</p><p>"The fighter ducked under the attacking orc's axe, sweat dripping from his brow. He wasn't sure how much longer he could keep it up. He slashed with his sword, slicing at the orcs chest. The orc was forced to jump backwards to avoid the blow and it only scratched shallowly into him. The fighter took advantage of opening given to him and pushed forward, keenly aware that he was starting to be worn down with all the exertion. It was only a matter of time until he made a mistake and the orc's axe hit him and ended his life.</p><p></p><p>The warlord, seeing that his ally was in trouble and needed him to come to his aid wound up with his greatsword to make one last ditch effort to dispatch the orc that he was fighting so he would be free to help the fighter. He put every last ounce of willpower he had into the attack. Time was of the essence and his friend might die if this didn't work. He connected and felt his sword cleanly decapitate his adversary. He yelled out to the fighter, 'I'll be right there. You have to hold out until I get there. Remember, if we lose all of those villagers will be killed. We can't let that happen!'</p><p></p><p>The fighter, seeing the conviction in the warlord's eyes, steeled himself against the pain in his aching muscles and thought about the sweet little orphans he had met in town. He couldn't let them down. He just needed to hold out another couple of seconds. The warlord would be here to help him in no time and they seemed to be winning. He could rest after the last of the orcs lay on the ground dead. He felt a rush of energy go through his body and he realized that he could continue after all. He had to. He would not allow that orc to hit him."</p><p></p><p>All of this is completely possible(and encouraged) by the 4e rules. It doesn't create any narrative problems at all. It only creates problems when you start thinking of the game rules as narrative rules as well.</p><p></p><p>Sure, if you describe the warlord as yelling what he did and suddenly the gash in the fighter's chest healing...then people start wondering "What? How did he do that?!?!"</p><p></p><p>If the fighter actually yells out "Thanks for the healing, I could use another one next round." and the warlord says "Sorry, that was my daily, I can't do it again." THEN you have a problem.</p><p></p><p>However, only the PLAYERS discuss things like that. Which is no problem, since they ARE a bunch of players playing a game with rules. It's helpful to describe things in terms of rules so everyone is on the same page.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Majoru Oakheart, post: 4110356, member: 5143"] Personally, it ruins my experience more when people are falling asleep at the table since this round of combat will be exactly the same as the round before it except for the wizard. Which is what happens 90% of the time in 3.5e. "Oh, you mean you are readying an action to attack the next enemy that becomes prone? Then you are waiting for an enemy to provoke an AOO from you with your spiked chain and then tripping them, getting a free attack due to Improved Trip and then hitting them again with your ready action? I didn't see that coming. Wait, I did...you've been doing it every round of combat for 5 levels now." It might have been. And it works. I have yet to see another suggestion that actually balances the classes that is still "realistic". Then suggest an implementation that fixes it without the "artificial" nature of these rules. One that ensures that the fighter(no matter how powergamey the player or how much role playing focused the player) does something different and interesting in each round of combat. While also making sure that the wizard doesn't have more options available to him than the fighter and that the options available to both are of equal value to the combat. Also make sure that all of the classes can contribute equally to a combat. However, you must make sure that a group of characters still runs low on resources after a while to make sure you don't break realism too much and keep an element of resource management. However, you want each class to play the resource game as much as the others. So, you can't set the limit of a group to continue based on Cleric or Wizard spells. But, you also want to make sure that the group is encouraged to fight multiple encounters per day and aren't able to blow all their resources in one combat. Say what you will about the 4e system, but it accomplishes all of these goals. And at the end of the day, I'm sitting down to play a game with some friends. So, if the game portion of D&D works better then it is better for us. I think that's where the main difference in people comes from. If I was sitting down to simulate some sort of reality then I would be perfectly willing to accept the fact that I, as the fighter, don't know how to cast spells...and magic is powerful so I should expect to be weak and have to do the same things over and over again. That's just the way life works. You don't always get to be the most powerful. However, when I sit down to play a game with my friends, I expect the game to be fair to everyone. Even if it isn't "realistic" for fairness to exist. I think this is pretty much exactly what was said in the Q&A with the designers listed in the OP. When I sit down it's to evoke a story where a small group of adventurers risks their lives against all odds and defeats the bad guys after having a bunch of cool and interesting battles with a lot of tension. My goal isn't to simulate anything at all. It is to play a fun game. A game which has fun rules. I'm not sure that a narrative discussion of the events of a 4e would hurt believability at all. Your concern is with the fact that the players know the game rules. I mean, as I pointed out in another thread, if I wrote a story that said: "The fighter ducked under the attacking orc's axe, sweat dripping from his brow. He wasn't sure how much longer he could keep it up. He slashed with his sword, slicing at the orcs chest. The orc was forced to jump backwards to avoid the blow and it only scratched shallowly into him. The fighter took advantage of opening given to him and pushed forward, keenly aware that he was starting to be worn down with all the exertion. It was only a matter of time until he made a mistake and the orc's axe hit him and ended his life. The warlord, seeing that his ally was in trouble and needed him to come to his aid wound up with his greatsword to make one last ditch effort to dispatch the orc that he was fighting so he would be free to help the fighter. He put every last ounce of willpower he had into the attack. Time was of the essence and his friend might die if this didn't work. He connected and felt his sword cleanly decapitate his adversary. He yelled out to the fighter, 'I'll be right there. You have to hold out until I get there. Remember, if we lose all of those villagers will be killed. We can't let that happen!' The fighter, seeing the conviction in the warlord's eyes, steeled himself against the pain in his aching muscles and thought about the sweet little orphans he had met in town. He couldn't let them down. He just needed to hold out another couple of seconds. The warlord would be here to help him in no time and they seemed to be winning. He could rest after the last of the orcs lay on the ground dead. He felt a rush of energy go through his body and he realized that he could continue after all. He had to. He would not allow that orc to hit him." All of this is completely possible(and encouraged) by the 4e rules. It doesn't create any narrative problems at all. It only creates problems when you start thinking of the game rules as narrative rules as well. Sure, if you describe the warlord as yelling what he did and suddenly the gash in the fighter's chest healing...then people start wondering "What? How did he do that?!?!" If the fighter actually yells out "Thanks for the healing, I could use another one next round." and the warlord says "Sorry, that was my daily, I can't do it again." THEN you have a problem. However, only the PLAYERS discuss things like that. Which is no problem, since they ARE a bunch of players playing a game with rules. It's helpful to describe things in terms of rules so everyone is on the same page. [/QUOTE]
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