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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 5429245" data-attributes="member: 177">Well, we have a few problems when we speak about &quot;the community&quot; retrospectively.At the time of the release of 2e and 3e (1989 and 2000, respectively), &quot;the community&quot; was not particularly well connected, and information moved slowly through it.&nbsp; I dare say that the majority of the community for those releases didn't have a whole lot of information about the new products at the time of the release.For the release of 4e (2007) that type of loosely connected community existed, but alongside it ran the internet rpg community.&nbsp; When we talk about the split, the only real evidence we have is for the internet community, and that's basically anecdotal, and not representative of the larger, loosely connected community.I think you're wrong there - the most robust sales and growth were more likely in the 1980s, with 1e.&nbsp; Since nobody has numbers for the 80s (that data has been lost to history), and only WotC has the numbers for 3e's launch, we shall just have to agree to disagree.You aren't the only old-timer around here, so please don't use that as a determiner of authority.&nbsp; I've been around since EN World's beginnings too, as have many others.&nbsp; That doesn't mean our experiences match.3e didn't cause the vitriol we see on message boards today, no. But then, the message board community as we know it today didn't exist.&nbsp; There is a strong argument that the game itself did not cause the schism we see, but that the online community did it to itself.In the meantime, I don't think we have any data about how the folks who aren't in the internet community are feeling about the whole thing.Back in the early 1990s, with the release of White Wolf's &quot;World of Darkness&quot; games, there was also talk of a schism.&nbsp; There was some vitriol between fans of either one, lots of talk that that White Wolf had stolen huge amounts of D&amp;D's market share, discussion that this might mean the death of D&amp;D, and all that.&nbsp; But, as time went on, it was discovered that there wasn't an actual schism, except between the real hotheads.&nbsp; Most of us didn't choose sides - we played both games, when one or the other suited our moods.Now, as I've already said, the 4e era is somewhat different - &quot;the community&quot; isn't the same thing.&nbsp; But it just seems to me that history suggests that the rumblings of the worried and discontent are poor indicators of what is actually happening in the wider world of players.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 5429245, member: 177"] Well, we have a few problems when we speak about "the community" retrospectively. At the time of the release of 2e and 3e (1989 and 2000, respectively), "the community" was not particularly well connected, and information moved slowly through it. I dare say that the majority of the community for those releases didn't have a whole lot of information about the new products at the time of the release. For the release of 4e (2007) that type of loosely connected community existed, but alongside it ran the internet rpg community. When we talk about the split, the only real evidence we have is for the internet community, and that's basically anecdotal, and not representative of the larger, loosely connected community. I think you're wrong there - the most robust sales and growth were more likely in the 1980s, with 1e. Since nobody has numbers for the 80s (that data has been lost to history), and only WotC has the numbers for 3e's launch, we shall just have to agree to disagree. You aren't the only old-timer around here, so please don't use that as a determiner of authority. I've been around since EN World's beginnings too, as have many others. That doesn't mean our experiences match. 3e didn't cause the vitriol we see on message boards today, no. But then, the message board community as we know it today didn't exist. There is a strong argument that the game itself did not cause the schism we see, but that the online community did it to itself. In the meantime, I don't think we have any data about how the folks who aren't in the internet community are feeling about the whole thing. Back in the early 1990s, with the release of White Wolf's "World of Darkness" games, there was also talk of a schism. There was some vitriol between fans of either one, lots of talk that that White Wolf had stolen huge amounts of D&D's market share, discussion that this might mean the death of D&D, and all that. But, as time went on, it was discovered that there wasn't an actual schism, except between the real hotheads. Most of us didn't choose sides - we played both games, when one or the other suited our moods. Now, as I've already said, the 4e era is somewhat different - "the community" isn't the same thing. But it just seems to me that history suggests that the rumblings of the worried and discontent are poor indicators of what is actually happening in the wider world of players. [/QUOTE]

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