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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tukka" data-source="post: 6161155" data-attributes="member: 6668048">For a while now I've been wondering what other people think of the themes added in Zeitgeist. While my degree of 4e system mastery is not super high, looking at the themes and seeing them in play for a while has allowed me to develop some opinions about them. Now seems as good a time as any to share them, especially since Ryan is soliciting our thoughts for revising the Intro Pack and Part 1 adventures.Please chip in with your thoughts if you have any. A lot of my thoughts are based on theory (and like I said, I'm not an expert optimizer) and those that aren't are based on a pretty small sample size.This will contain spoilers, potentially up to and including Adventure 6.DockerFlint Prestige +1: This seems to be a pretty minor benefit. Its value depends on the players/DMs being cognizant of the favor system, and using it in a consistent manner. Not bad though.Docker's Jank: This seems to be a really solid power that will be useful in just about any combat encounter.Sing Your Praises: This is more situational, but is still quite good. It should scale well into the paragon/epic tiers.People in the Streets: I don't think I'm a fan of these "count a roll of a 1-7 as an 8" traits. It would seem to obviate the need to roll on these checks for a highly specialized character, unless the DCs are set punishingly high... while not being very good for non-specialized characters. I'll probably replace these traits with something else, but I'm not sure what yet -- naybe the player's choice of a level 6 or lower Skill Power associated with one of the theme's skills.Verdict: A solidly built theme. A slightly more interesting level 10 benefit would be nice.EschatologistStabilize instead of die from a failed death save: So far I've found that PCs are at greater risk of dying from HP loss than failed death saves. This trait is obviously extremely good if it's ever needed, but it's highly situational. It will get less good in the higher tiers of play when the characters get access to death-defying class abilities and powers. I also like proactive powers more than reactive ones.Icy End of the Earth: Cool flavor, but all my players and I feel this power is very marginal and in too many situations it seems like it would be more of a liability than a benefit, especially given how rare it is that enemies have healing abilities or gain temp hp, and how common it is for the players to benefit from such. Make this power a minor action and we've got something more worth considering. Possibly give the eschatologist the option of ending the effect immediately if any creature dies in the zone.It Will All Turn to Dust: This is a double-edged buff for the Icy End power. It could end up helping either the party or their enemies. It gives give the power some utility value as a poor man's pass wall, but I am not sure how often that will come up.Details of Our Endings: See my commentary for People in the Streets. Also, the skills it applies to seem a bit less valuable than some others.Verdict: I think this may be the weakest of the themes in terms of mechanics.GunsmithI have some issues with firearms in general. Mainly because they are based on crossbows, which seem to have spotty support as primary weapons in 4e, and much of the support involves making them easier to reload, which is redundant with Firearms Expertise or does not apply. I am not sure how I'd make a good firearms-wielding character.Second, and this is somewhat specific to my game, but I give everyone expertise bonuses to all weapons and implements at level 5 as a math fix. Firearms Expertise, however, remains a mandatory feat tax, because reloading as a standard action is not acceptable. I suppose it still works, however, if you think of firearms as superior weapons.Craft magic firearms and ammunition as enchant magic item: The benefit here seems close to nil, and mainly there to support the flavor of the theme. Usually the PC could just buy or requisition the firearms and ammo in question.The Man with Two Guns is God: I think this is a good power, though I feel silly whenever I say the name.Tinker: Part of this benefit overlaps with the inherent bonuses rule, but that's probably not a problem. Between all of the different modifications, every gunslinger ought to be able to find at least one that appeals. I think the alchemical launcher is my favorite, but I fear cartridge loading is the mandatory choice for too many builds, unless you let crossbow-oriented feats that allow loading as a free action to apply to firearms if the player stacks them with the Firearms Expertise feat. Having to keep tracking of how many shots you've fired adds a little bookkeeping, but that's not too onerous, IMO.Bling: Same as tinker.Verdict: Not many classes seem built to use crossbows/hand crossbows, as a primary weapon, but that's not really a problem with the theme itself, which I think is solid.Martial ScientistTrained in History: History isn't the greatest skill, but I'd never turn my nose up at any free skill training. Also, with the way it's written, it lets a character who has History on his class list train it to  open up all of the other skills as being trainable, which frees up a non-theme Background benefit for a +2 bonus (or yet another training not on your class list). So this is a solid benefit.Proficient in all military weapons: There may be some way to leverage this for a decent buff in some builds, but mostly it will be redundant or a minor perk, which seems about right.Experimental Strike: The martial scientist in my game has rarely missed with his at-will attacks, and the few times he has, he hasn't remembered to use this power (or he wasn't in position to take advantage of any obvious environmental features). Net result, so far this power has gone unused in my game. Still, this is a cool power, and any power that has the potential to turn a hit into a miss is a nice one. How good it actually is depends a lot on the player and DM.Martial Mythbuster: A solid extension of Experimental Strike, I know my party's swordmage will like it (but it will give him a bit of a dilemma -- use experimental strike when someone misses him, or save his immediate action for shielding aegis).Doctor of Modern Warfare: This looks really good to me. The way it reads, it grants proficiency with holy symbols, ki focuses, and all superior implements, weapons and armor, on top of Melee Training. That saves potentially saves the martial scientist 2-3 feats, one of which might be a multiclass feat. For certain builds this feature might be a tad weak or redundant, but for others it seems really, really good.Surgical Precision (Master training): Wow. The free extra damage is quite good by itself, but weakened is a hell of a condition to impose even for a single round. I'm not sure I would give this power to my player if I were to do it again. I didn't notice how powerful it was when I gave it to him, since I read the Surgical Precision attack and thought that's the power card I was handing him. And this will get used every fight. Maybe this should be a Daily power.Tentacle Technique: Pretty good, albeit situational (adventures 4, 5 and 6 don't seem to feature creatures with grabbing tentacles, and I'm not sure a power that won't see use for a stretch of 3+ adventures merits space on a character sheet).Focused Severance: While a fun effect, it's more bookkeeping/tracking for a power that is unlikely to have big impact on whatever battle it's used in.Dale Assault: Again, I'm not sure I like how this ability adds more tracking/bookkeeping to combat. Also, what it means to "delay the onset of an effect by 1 round" in 4e is unclear. So if an enemy hits you with a fear effect that ends at the end of its next turn, does that mean it has no effect? Or do you offset the entire duration by 1 round? I appreciate what this is trying to do and I like Lt. Dale's shtick, but I do not think I like the implementation.Verdict: I like the martial scientist theme, but I think aspects of it threaten to be overpowered, and the huge grab bag of abilities add too many options/too much complexity. (It's like the equivalent of giving the martial scientist an extra Rare item every adventure.) I think the martial scientist's combat prowess is meant to offset its relative lack of investigatory/utility perks, but even there, it gets free skill training, which is nothing to scoff at. This is the theme I'd fear most in the hands of an optimizer, especially if he knows about the level 10 benefit at character creation.SkyseerSkyseer Vision: Cool, though as a sometimes lazy DM, I wish the AP had a few more suggestions about the kinds of things a skyseer might see and the benefits he might receive for some of the obvious questions he might ask throughout the course of each adventure. The first few visions I gave the skyseer were well-received by my players, but now I am having a hard time coming up with visions that strike the right balance between cryptic and helpful, without getting too repetitive.Look Skyward: A nice, subtle tactical power. I like it, though I think my players are still trying to figure out how to use it to maximum advantage.Follow Yonder Star: Another really nice tactical power.Heirphant's Wisdom: See People in the Streets.Verdict: Another solid theme. What it lacks in overt power in combat, it might make up for with a critical hint in the form of a vision.Spirit MediumSpeak with Spirit: Obviously a useful power for an investigator. It gives the party a nice little jumpstart in the Dying Skyseer. It gets a little redundant with the Speak with Dead ritual later, but that's not a serious problem.Unfinished Business: Good little constables don't kill people, which reduces the number of pportunities to take advantage of this power throughout the first two adventures and possibly others, but this power should see some good mileage in Digging for Lies, especially with the "hits insubstantial" kicker. I've considered buffing this power to let the medium invoke someone who has died within the past 24 hours instead of just the past encounter, but I don't think that will be necessary.Psychic History: Another good power for investigations, at least in theory. I haven't had an opportunity to see it in action yet and am not sure how it'll pan out. Also somewhat redundant with a ritual, but again, not really a problem.Spirit Wall: I haven't looked too close at adventures 5 and 6 yet to see if one will crop up, but I can only assume this will be a good power to have in the Paragon and Epic tiers. One concern I have in my game is that our spirit medium is a high-willed mage -- not necessarily an ideal target for dominating effects in the first place, so this one could end up being very situational.Verdict: Good. It doesn't seem like the steady contributor that some of the other themes are, but when it's good it's quite good.TechnologistTechnical expertise: This turns out to be a pretty handy/clutch ability in some of the adventures. Not bad at all.Disposable Simulacrum: A nice tactical power. A bit vulnerable to area effect attacks, but so far the AP doesn't seem to feature a lot of those. One thing I'm not clear on is how it works with weapon powers if the weapon uses ammunition. By a strict reading of the rules I guess the technologist's weapon would have to be loaded to attack with the simulacrum, and the attack would use the ammunition. I had a crossbow-wielding artificer/technologist in one of my games and he was pretty strapped for actions at times (though this would eventually be alleviated with feats, the issue would remain if he used firearms, but maybe that's just the price you have to pay).The Pet It Should Have Always Been: A nice upgrade to the contraption that makes it considerably more practical/usable.Second Self: Again, good. It should probably now be possible to use Power Points to enhance powers used through the contraption so psionic classes aren't penalized.Verdict: Another good, flavorful theme. Maybe there should be a feat to give the simulacrum a little more durability, either in the form of more HP or higher defenses.Vekeshi MysticUnseen Court Prestige +1: Although the Vekeshi gets access to some of the juicier side-plots in the published adventures, so far as I can tell, in terms of gaining advantage for the party, this Prestige bump does very little, at least in the first 6 adventures.Hands of Retribution: A little bland in terms of its mechanical effect, but it seems like a pretty good power without being overpowering. Free action damage is always welcome and it should get invoked fairly often.Vengeful Gaze of the Goddess: Another useful power for investigators which seems like it should get some solid use in Always on Time. I'm not sure it's quite on par with some of the investigatory theme powers given that you have to see the person first and think to use your Daily power on them before they get out of sight, though.Relentless Terror: Like I said, not really a big fan of these.Verdict: The Vekeshi gets some of the best storyline support, but in terms of mechanics it seems slightly ho-hum and lackluster.Yerasol VeteranRisur Prestige +1: Of all the Prestige-boosting traits, this one is definitely the best, at least in Part 1 of the Adventure Path, since it means getting your requisitioned items faster. If the group is following the favor system as outlined in the ZPG, this is very good.Display of Heroism: What a sweet, clutch power.Courage Under Fire: More awesome clutch goodness, and it's seriously good. It should probably read "when an ally is reduced to 0 hit points, you <s>may</s> gain an action point," because who's going to say no to a free action point, especially when it lets you use another during the encounter. [Edit: Never mind, I suppose a player might choose not to use this power to to save the "extra action" benefit for a tougher encounter later on.]Call of Duty: No real complaints, this looks good.Verdict: Very good overall. Clutch but not overly situational.</blockquote>

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