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4E vs 5E: Monsters and bounded accuracy
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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 6906337" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>I don't think that Bounded Accuracy is what makes the monsters seem similar, or makes them one trick ponies. Really I think what the difference is, and it's not well promoted in the MM, is that you have a pretty endless selection of options. With the 4e approach, you had a bunch of one-trick ponies, but they were <em>really</em> optimized for that trick. So you could build a group of orcs or goblins with several of those tricks.</p><p></p><p>In 5e, instead of limiting you to those options (and I see them as more limiting), the options are open for whatever your needs are. </p><p></p><p>Yes, the dragons are all pretty similar, but that's because they are dragons. If you're being attacked by a lion, tiger, leopard, panther, or cheetah, most of the attack methodology is pretty similar. The cheetah stands out as the real outlier, but otherwise they are big cats that use stealth and ambush to make a big deadly attack. </p><p></p><p>Dragons are flying, strong combatants, with breath weapons. I use the spell casting variant to bring them in line with older editions. I've also made things like demons and devils much deadlier by returning their spell-like abilities that are missing for some reason.</p><p></p><p>The main way you differentiate monsters is by their actions. Sure, with humanoids you can do more than that, just like the PCs have lots of options. But for regular monsters, it just makes sense to me. A lion, tiger, panther, jaguar, leopard, and cheetah are all pretty similar. I'd say some are more DEX based, others STR based, and the cheetah is an outlier with its speed. On the other hand, they all attack primarily using stealth and ambush, picking out the weakest, or a straggler. And it really doesn't matter how many lions you meet, they all attack pretty much the same way.</p><p></p><p>Dragons are intelligent, and like all intelligent monsters, that's what really sets them apart. Instead of having different stat blocks for several one-trick variations, just modifiy their actions along with their abilities as needed. So there isn't any problem adding sneak attack to a particular goblin, or an orc with a barbarian rage. Different weapons, etc. On the other hand, most goblins <em>do</em> have the same general tactics and training.</p><p></p><p>What I do, though, is differentiate between monsters. The special abilities that a goblin has gives you a hint to their tactics, as does the different special abilities of orcs. It is rare for an intelligent being to fight to the death in my campaigns, and goblins in particular will run (or stay just out of reach) like hyenas if they sense they are outmatched. They will use guerrilla tactics to wear the PCs down, using ranged weapons, leading them toward traps, or even more dangerous monsters, to avoid risking themselves. Orcs are more direct. They are fighters who gain status in their clan through strength and force. They don't want to be seen as weak, but they also live in a culture where there's a good chance they are fighting nearly every day. So they are very good at it, and very good at tactics.</p><p></p><p>I might modify monsters and give them additional abilities if I think it makes sense, like the Trog advantage against creatures who are slowed by difficult terrain. My trogs and lizard folk are equally at home on two or four legs, and have longer torsos than your typical humanoid. Their weapon and armor choice reflects this. A half dozen of these creatures that attack, hide, and move to a new position can seem like a lot more than that. And I don't need any extraneous stats (although I did compile a list of the most common weapon and armor variations).</p><p></p><p>Here are a couple of examples:</p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'"> TypicalGoblin Tactics </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Goblinshate pain. They will do what they can to set themselves in positions of coverto attack using shortbows, then hide.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Theirposition will allow for at least two escape routes, ideally providing anopportunity to circle behind their opponent to attack then quickly disengageand flee to a hiding place. They have a tendency to scatter, and they aren'tparticularly concerned about putting a fellow goblin at risk if it increasestheir own chance for survival. So they are willing to fire into melee. </span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Ifhobgoblins are present, the goblins will either fire from cover, or dart in andout of the combat, and letting the hobgoblins do the heavy hitting. Bugbearswill wade right into the midst of battle, looking to single out the strongestmelee combatant. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">TypicalTroglodyte Tactics</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Troglodytesuse their narrow winding tunnels and stench attack to separate and disableopponents. Troglodytes have advantage on attacks against opponents who areslowed by difficult terrain. When entering battle, a troglodyte will often havea handful (1d4 +2) stone javelins. They will use concealment and cover toattack at range, then hide and use their many tunnels to move to a newlocation. They will attempt to surround their targets to attack from multiplelocations. They will pick up thrown javelins when possible, to avoid closingfor melee.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Theywill also take advantage of narrow openings (that require crawling or squeezingby other races) and make melee attacks by thrusting with their javelins andthen retreating into the narrow passage. When they are reduced to a singlejavelin, they will start to hide and move in to make a melee attack and thenretreat. They will avoid prolonged battles, continuing to follow and makesniping attacks to wear their opponents down. Sleeping in a troglodyte warrenis nearly impossible without magical assistance, as they will continue toattack throughout the night.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Theytry to avoid fighting to the death, but they will continue to follow and attackany intelligent creatures in their territories until they have left theirdomain, or have been killed. Their attacks will also be made in a way to try todrive creatures away from their lairs.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">TypicalLizardfolk Tactics</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Lizardfolkuse simple stone-age weapons. Spears, javelins, slings, stone axes, stonedaggers, shortbows and clubs (often spiked with stone or bone) are the mostcommon. They will also pick up and use others' steel weapons of similar types.They also make use of natural poisons where available (serpent or frog arecommon).</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Intheir home terrain, they are fond of snares that capture a target by both legsor in a net, and then grapple the target and drag them into a nearby body ofswampy water, attempting to drown their victim. Without a trap, they will workin groups, with one group throwing daggers or axes to draw their attention fromthe other group that use the concealment of murky waterways to swim as close aspossible and attack from behind. Against stronger opponents, it's not uncommonfor two or three to work together in grappling the victim. They will eathumanoid flesh, so any creatures killed will be tied by their feet and broughtto their village for food.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Likeany intelligent creature, they will not fight to the death unless there is noescape, or to protect their village. Any attacks will be managed in a way totry to draw dangers away from their village. </span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Theygenerally don't wear armor, and haven't developed real smithing skills. Butthey will use hard objects to make basic armor (turtle shells, for example),and often use shields made from natural materials.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Theytravel lightly, and can move on two or four legs, along with being strongswimmers. So they rarely wear anything other than decorative straps, belts,etc. War paint and tattoos may occur in certain tribes. </span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Inand around the kingdom of Najara are more advanced lizardfolk. Many wereenslaved by the yuan-ti (more akin to "domesticated") and given steelweapons and better (usually scale mail) armor. But other than a few that havebrought these technologies back to their homelands (like the Marsh ofChelimber), most find that their lifestlye in the swamps makes it too difficultto maintain such items, and go back to more traditional options. </span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 6906337, member: 6778044"] I don't think that Bounded Accuracy is what makes the monsters seem similar, or makes them one trick ponies. Really I think what the difference is, and it's not well promoted in the MM, is that you have a pretty endless selection of options. With the 4e approach, you had a bunch of one-trick ponies, but they were [I]really[/I] optimized for that trick. So you could build a group of orcs or goblins with several of those tricks. In 5e, instead of limiting you to those options (and I see them as more limiting), the options are open for whatever your needs are. Yes, the dragons are all pretty similar, but that's because they are dragons. If you're being attacked by a lion, tiger, leopard, panther, or cheetah, most of the attack methodology is pretty similar. The cheetah stands out as the real outlier, but otherwise they are big cats that use stealth and ambush to make a big deadly attack. Dragons are flying, strong combatants, with breath weapons. I use the spell casting variant to bring them in line with older editions. I've also made things like demons and devils much deadlier by returning their spell-like abilities that are missing for some reason. The main way you differentiate monsters is by their actions. Sure, with humanoids you can do more than that, just like the PCs have lots of options. But for regular monsters, it just makes sense to me. A lion, tiger, panther, jaguar, leopard, and cheetah are all pretty similar. I'd say some are more DEX based, others STR based, and the cheetah is an outlier with its speed. On the other hand, they all attack primarily using stealth and ambush, picking out the weakest, or a straggler. And it really doesn't matter how many lions you meet, they all attack pretty much the same way. Dragons are intelligent, and like all intelligent monsters, that's what really sets them apart. Instead of having different stat blocks for several one-trick variations, just modifiy their actions along with their abilities as needed. So there isn't any problem adding sneak attack to a particular goblin, or an orc with a barbarian rage. Different weapons, etc. On the other hand, most goblins [I]do[/I] have the same general tactics and training. What I do, though, is differentiate between monsters. The special abilities that a goblin has gives you a hint to their tactics, as does the different special abilities of orcs. It is rare for an intelligent being to fight to the death in my campaigns, and goblins in particular will run (or stay just out of reach) like hyenas if they sense they are outmatched. They will use guerrilla tactics to wear the PCs down, using ranged weapons, leading them toward traps, or even more dangerous monsters, to avoid risking themselves. Orcs are more direct. They are fighters who gain status in their clan through strength and force. They don't want to be seen as weak, but they also live in a culture where there's a good chance they are fighting nearly every day. So they are very good at it, and very good at tactics. I might modify monsters and give them additional abilities if I think it makes sense, like the Trog advantage against creatures who are slowed by difficult terrain. My trogs and lizard folk are equally at home on two or four legs, and have longer torsos than your typical humanoid. Their weapon and armor choice reflects this. A half dozen of these creatures that attack, hide, and move to a new position can seem like a lot more than that. And I don't need any extraneous stats (although I did compile a list of the most common weapon and armor variations). Here are a couple of examples: [FONT=Calibri] TypicalGoblin Tactics [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Goblinshate pain. They will do what they can to set themselves in positions of coverto attack using shortbows, then hide. [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Theirposition will allow for at least two escape routes, ideally providing anopportunity to circle behind their opponent to attack then quickly disengageand flee to a hiding place. They have a tendency to scatter, and they aren'tparticularly concerned about putting a fellow goblin at risk if it increasestheir own chance for survival. So they are willing to fire into melee. [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri] [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Ifhobgoblins are present, the goblins will either fire from cover, or dart in andout of the combat, and letting the hobgoblins do the heavy hitting. Bugbearswill wade right into the midst of battle, looking to single out the strongestmelee combatant. [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]TypicalTroglodyte Tactics[/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Troglodytesuse their narrow winding tunnels and stench attack to separate and disableopponents. Troglodytes have advantage on attacks against opponents who areslowed by difficult terrain. When entering battle, a troglodyte will often havea handful (1d4 +2) stone javelins. They will use concealment and cover toattack at range, then hide and use their many tunnels to move to a newlocation. They will attempt to surround their targets to attack from multiplelocations. They will pick up thrown javelins when possible, to avoid closingfor melee.[/FONT] [FONT=Calibri] [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Theywill also take advantage of narrow openings (that require crawling or squeezingby other races) and make melee attacks by thrusting with their javelins andthen retreating into the narrow passage. When they are reduced to a singlejavelin, they will start to hide and move in to make a melee attack and thenretreat. They will avoid prolonged battles, continuing to follow and makesniping attacks to wear their opponents down. Sleeping in a troglodyte warrenis nearly impossible without magical assistance, as they will continue toattack throughout the night.[/FONT] [FONT=Calibri] [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Theytry to avoid fighting to the death, but they will continue to follow and attackany intelligent creatures in their territories until they have left theirdomain, or have been killed. Their attacks will also be made in a way to try todrive creatures away from their lairs.[/FONT] [FONT=Calibri] [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]TypicalLizardfolk Tactics[/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Lizardfolkuse simple stone-age weapons. Spears, javelins, slings, stone axes, stonedaggers, shortbows and clubs (often spiked with stone or bone) are the mostcommon. They will also pick up and use others' steel weapons of similar types.They also make use of natural poisons where available (serpent or frog arecommon).[/FONT] [FONT=Calibri] [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Intheir home terrain, they are fond of snares that capture a target by both legsor in a net, and then grapple the target and drag them into a nearby body ofswampy water, attempting to drown their victim. Without a trap, they will workin groups, with one group throwing daggers or axes to draw their attention fromthe other group that use the concealment of murky waterways to swim as close aspossible and attack from behind. Against stronger opponents, it's not uncommonfor two or three to work together in grappling the victim. They will eathumanoid flesh, so any creatures killed will be tied by their feet and broughtto their village for food.[/FONT] [FONT=Calibri] [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Likeany intelligent creature, they will not fight to the death unless there is noescape, or to protect their village. Any attacks will be managed in a way totry to draw dangers away from their village. [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri] [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Theygenerally don't wear armor, and haven't developed real smithing skills. Butthey will use hard objects to make basic armor (turtle shells, for example),and often use shields made from natural materials.[/FONT] [FONT=Calibri] [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Theytravel lightly, and can move on two or four legs, along with being strongswimmers. So they rarely wear anything other than decorative straps, belts,etc. War paint and tattoos may occur in certain tribes. [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri] [/FONT] [FONT=Calibri][/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Inand around the kingdom of Najara are more advanced lizardfolk. Many wereenslaved by the yuan-ti (more akin to "domesticated") and given steelweapons and better (usually scale mail) armor. But other than a few that havebrought these technologies back to their homelands (like the Marsh ofChelimber), most find that their lifestlye in the swamps makes it too difficultto maintain such items, and go back to more traditional options. [/FONT] [/QUOTE]
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