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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gargoyle" data-source="post: 4758027" data-attributes="member: 529">It sounds like three things are bugging them, and because there are multiple concerns for them, it feels like a big deal to them, even if all three problems are small by themselves.  I'm guessing they feel:1.  They dislike that there is not a simple class to play in 4e.  In earlier editions, many players were happy with the fighter class because it didn't have a lot of options to analyze.  Nowadays, the fighter is one of the most complex to play.  There are no simple solutions to this, but if a player is feeling overwhelmed, I would suggest making the power choices for them, or at least helping a lot.  My eight year old plays his rogue sometimes, and what we do is I read the flavor text of the powers to him and he picks which one he likes.  2.  Some martial powers feel like magic, compared to how things are done in earlier editions.  Fighters use Comeback Strike to heal themselves. A rogue uses Blinding Barrage to blind an opponent, etc.  The way 4e healing is presented, and they way Blinding Barrage is described, these are clearly not magical abilities, but you don't see this stuff in earlier editions, so they're not used to it.  Those are just 1st level dailies...the higher level stuff can seem more magical. I think this is an edition paradigm that will bother them less as they play 4e more.3.  They feel restricted because the at will powers are better than basic attacks, and so their narrative of their player's actions is restricted to their at will powers.  This seems to be the most annoying thing to your players.  This reminds me of feats in 3.x games.  What are now martial powers sometimes used to be feats, and the same discussions over whether feats restricted player characters' actions took place when 3rd edition was released.  For example, in earlier editions, if you wanted to try a powerful attack at the expense of accuracy, a DM might give you a penalty to hit and a bonus to damage.   In 3rd edition, he'd probably say "But you don't have the Power Attack feat".  So really there is some validity to this concern.  They are afraid that the existence of all these powers will limit the things they can try to do. Even if they almost always "attack with my sword" they may still want the option to try swinging from a chandelier or jump on the ogre's back, or whatever, and they are worried they're losing that option. Page 42 of the DMG, Actions the Rules Don't Cover, is the answer to this one.  Explain to them that D&D 4th edition is still a role playing game and they can still try to do anything, even if there is already a power  or feat for it that they don't have, and that there are rules to help you with that.  As long as you follow the guidelines for how much damage they can deal with such actions and the DC's, etc, you should be ok.  (Note there is some errata on that page, so you might want to check that out at <a href="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates" target="_blank">Official D&D Updates</a> .)  The powers and feats just give them a better chance to do this stuff, they don't mean that such actions are impossible for characters without those powers and feats.  As long as you make the "off-the-cuff" stuff harder than using the actual powers, and not do more damage than the guidelines allow, it should be fun.Heck, you could even apply this to spells, not just to martial exploits.  Don't know how to cast a fireball but facing a room full of troll minions?  Make it a very difficult arcana skill check and see what happens.  Failure might be disastrous, but at least it will be memorable.  If I'm out in left field and these aren't their concerns at all, then I don't know.  Maybe they just need some time to get used to it...it's definitely different than earlier versions, and seeing it in action will help. I certainly don't recommend going back to 3.5 unless you as the DM also want to.  An unhappy DM isn't going to run the best game.  But if you all like 3.5 better, I'd consider it. I don't think 4e is for everyone.</blockquote>

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