4e without Paragon Paths and Epic Destiies?

[Greg K]

Between PHB2, Martial Power, Divine Power and DMG2, I have less complaints about 4e then I did before. Therefore, I borrowed the PHB and Martial Power from one of my players to give the game another look.

After rereading the books, I still don't like Paragon Paths or Epic Destinies (for the record, I really didn't care for most of WOTC's Prestige Classes either and, of those I allowed, most were a last resort).

So, I ask, how iintegral are Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies to running the game in those tiers.? Can the game work well without their inclusion?

 

[Dice4Hire]

The answer is, yes, you could, but what effect would it have.

If you take away PP, then you are removing three powers, a boost to APs, and at least one more ability the character could have by level 20. With APS being so easy to get and spend, the AP boost from a lot of PPs is pretty nice, and a good way to show how cool your character is, as well as provide bonuses when they are needed.

I don't see why restricting them is that necessary.

 

[Greg K]

If you take away PP, then you are removing three powers, a boost to APs, and at least one more ability the character could have by level 20. With APS being so easy to get and spend, the AP boost from a lot of PPs is pretty nice, and a good way to show how cool your character is, as well as provide bonuses when they are needed..

Actually, what I would want to do is expand the use of AP and have them work more like M&M hero points.

 

[hafrogman]

They should be easy enough to remove, just be sure to replace them with something. If you like versatility, having all your players get something like the paragon multiclassing should work. If not, you'll need powers for all the classes, my advice would be to lift them from some of the existing PP powers rather than trying to design your own.

 

[inkmonkeys]

It's easy, but without additional work, it has the impact of weakening characters overall.

At each level when a paragon path or epic destiny grants a power, the character gets a power of the same type (encounter attack, utility, or daily attack) of that level or lower from its class list.

You lose out on the paragon path features at levels 11 and 16, and the epic destiny features at levels 21, 24, and 30. If characters seem weak after that, you can give them a little extra in response.

At levels 11, 16, 21, 24, and 30, each character gains a bonus feat.

You could try that to cut paths and destinies out of the game with little muss.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

They should be easy enough to remove, just be sure to replace them with something. If you like versatility, having all your players get something like the paragon multiclassing should work. If not, you'll need powers for all the classes, my advice would be to lift them from some of the existing PP powers rather than trying to design your own.

I would use Paragon Multiclassing as basis, but instead of picking powers from your multiclass, you pick powers from your regular class.

Action Point features can come in different ways, and it might be covered by adding new options for APs anyway. If in doubt, there are some new Action Point enhancing feats from Dragon now that might fill that role. A feat I remember allows you to spend a healing surge together with an AP for example.

Epic Destinies... They have very varied effect. The simplest aspect is allowing the 26th level utility to be any 22 level utility from your Class or Multiclass.
Other generic stuff mght be:
21st level: +2 to two ability scores
24th level: Once per day if you die, recover half your hit points and stand up.
30th level: Pick one Daily Attack Power that you know. It is now a Encounter Power


I think the paragon paths and epic destinies itself are certainly needed in that they give important abilities that are part of the balance. But you don't have to use the specific implementation that 4E uses.

Action Points in a way work like an extra encounter power you get every 2 encounters. At Paragon with Action Point features, they turn into an extra daily power every 2 encounters, I think. The "lone" Action Point without any riders is essentially like a minor action (or actually a free action) encounter attack power, with feats and paragon features, it gets stronger than that.

Paragon Paths powers are essentially regular class powers with different constraints. One thing to understand is: You buy the entire package with paragon pathes and epic destinies. You can't cherry-pick like you might do with 3E Prestige Classes. So the overall package will be balanced, but not every path power and path feature against each other.