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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BeauNiddle" data-source="post: 4003124" data-attributes="member: 836">Okay I think I know the arguement xechnao is trying to make.Lets assume the designers have a formula for minions that states their BAB is always Player BAB -5, their HP are always Player average Damage * 3 and their damage is Player hitpoints / 20.This means if you are fighting minions APPROPRIATE FOR YOUR LEVEL their stats are always the same relative to yours. In that case why change the stats. Why not just give the player new options every so often?Which is a perfectly valid arguement in the context of the game rules but it falls down horribly when applied to the game world. The DM will have to make adhoc rules about what encounter type a monster classifies as at each and every encounter - they can never predefine the world. If the party come accross a band of orcs how does the DM rule whether they count as minions, standard, elite or solo? If the player knows 5 'combat tricks' should all orcs count as minons? What about if one member of the party knows 5 'combat tricks' and another only knows 1 'combat trick'?By adding levels it allows the world to be defined independent of the players. I can create a group of 3rd level goblins with 10 minions, 3 normal and one elite shaman. If the players attack at level 1 they will probably die. If they attack at level 9 then they will probably be able to kill the elite shaman as easily as the minions even though they are in different roles.Levels also provide clear progression for the players. Facing an elite 3rd level goblin shaman might require the players to use every trick in the book when they first meet at level 2 but by they are level 9 they can kill them all day without sweating. Facing a level 10 elite will require exactly the same dice rolls they needed to beat the goblin shaman when they first met but they know that the level 10 elite is a 'tougher' monster even if mathematically it's identical relative to the player stats.Since adventures are often designed for a specific character level then yes you could use xechnao's idea but if you tried to string those adventures into a campaign without using levels then you'd have a phenomenally hard time. THAT is the advantage of levels - they make campaigns doable.So now we know the advantage of levels lets have a look at the cost:A minor amount of maths every (other) time you level that can be recorded permanently on the character sheet. It is worth noting that 4th ed is moving away from ability /level damage so it's not like 3rd ed where throughout the adventure the numbers were changing from buffs, poisons, level draining, etc.To my mind (and I'm guessing many others) the advantage of coherent campaigns plus the feeling that out characters are stronger (whether its a valid feeling or not) outways the cost of redoing the character sheet occasionally.</blockquote>

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