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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Wyrmshadows" data-source="post: 3960312" data-attributes="member: 56166">I'm relatively pro-4e but there are some things that seem too gamist to me. For 24yrs I have been involved in either playing (rarely) or DMing D&D from OD&D to 3.5e and have never seen a player have a problem when their character wasn't particularly effective against a certain kind of monster.A rogue would suck at fighting undead but a wizard under high level would be useless against an iron golem. A warrior without a magical/silver weapon would be ineffective against a werewolf. I don't see a problem. Is it really so unfun that a PC runs into a challenge that he cannot smite down. What if the rogue has to trick the golem? What if the warrior has to get his silver coins cast into a silver dagger when he discovers his foe is a werewolf? Every class should have its weaknesses and its strengths. If you want a character who will shine in every combat, play a combat orientated class. It is stupid that a rogue can find the weak spot on a vampire when they don't have weak points besides their hearts which unless punctured by a wooded stake isn't anymore vulnerable than anything else.Oh maybe 4e is changig that as well. Maybe vampires should be more player kill-friendly.  :\ This is the kind of stuff about 4e that bothers me. Everyone has to be equally effective most all the time in a combat situation. With all the "unfun" going around I am surprised that anyone played D&D at all for all the years between OD&D and 3e. Its as up until now NO ONE played the game for the joy of the game. All those terrible, boring "dead levels" and no power-ups ever other level. How on earth did anyone manage to keep themselves interested in playing D&D? Ah ha, I have it. The players I knew loved role-playing gaming and loved playing their characters as part of an unfolding drama that they helped create. The fun was the joy of the game for the sake of the game. Everyone wanted a kickass character to be sure, but kickass meant more than just an assortment of whup-ass powers, kick ass meant a character who was tough, no doubt, but one that was memorable for what he or she accomplished in the context of the campaign.The above is what bother me, in part, about 4e (3/3.5e too actually) but I am more behind it than not.I have to admit that True20 and Runequest are becoming more and more my style. D&D seems to be becoming one gigantic action movie set in a dungeon. I know folks who played like that, but many of us did not and still don't. It seemed that in older editions of the game there was at least lip-service to versimilitude and a bone tossed in that direction from time to time. Now, the chant is "Its a Game why concern yourself with that?" Well if that's the case, just create a game where PC wrestle dragons with their bare hands, don't need weapons to decapitate a foe, where humans (without magic) fly at will, regenerate lost limbs, and where you can be as tall as my thumb and still have 20 strength. And in this game all the furniture is made of diamonds and clouds are made of cotton candy. Why not its only a game?Of course a DM could do this, but should nonsense be a part of the official rules and held up on a pedestal as necessary for fun?Wyrmshadows</blockquote>

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