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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Phlebas" data-source="post: 3975066" data-attributes="member: 23810">Maybe, I'm at 7th level, and I think you need to be higher to pull out spells like that for miscellaneous activity (though for the final encounter its def an option). for some reason our party is overloaded with spider climb items so we can spend the final encounter huddling on the ceiling.....I've also got a bag of tricks for that unremarkable doorway problem <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile    :-)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" />Def valid points, i was just trying to highlight rogues are not one-trick ponies with SA. Although i think the skill system could be improved, and played around with it in house rules, i haven't seen anything yet that really fixes all the issues elegantly. Personally i'm thinking of giving out free skill focus feats to all characters every x levels but thats a 3E sticking plaster."Ah, so we agree the principle and now we're just haggling over the price"I've no problem with changing the range of creatures immune to sneak, personally i'd like to see a mechanic similar to rangers favoured enemy to change the range. it would allow an undead specialist to be happy traipsing around a crypt, but still be nervous of plants or a construct demolition expert to have a skeleton-phobia.In my game i have a cleric / fighter with improved crit and lucky dice, so its becoming a regular feature of combat these days, but that may be a personal view..... especially since no-one can match the TWF Fighter / Rogue / Shadowdancer for damage output and she's now thinking of improved critical as well!I do think you can get issues if you don't mix and match challenges for any character class, try taking a druid, fighter specialising in mounted combat, illusionist and rogue down an undead filled crypt and see who feels more hard done by.... as a DM you have the ability to design PC killers or Gold mines with your decisions - SA immunity is just one of many factors you should be careful not to overuse.In both the games I play in the Rogue spot has been taken by a Ranger + Artificier or Urban Ranger + Warlock- they're 5 PC games and when we rolled up / pointed up PC's it was just how it came out.Where I DM there's 2 multi-class rogues and the only comment about SA came up when they were dealing with a bunch of half-golems in the sewers over several sessions. I always justified it as SA immunity was one of the reasons the half-golems were kicking butt of the other thieves guilds. Anyhow, the golems were beaten back and now they're more worried about the bad case of lycanthropy the docklands guild has come down with.....</blockquote>

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