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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6073459" data-attributes="member: 22779">4e's biggest downfall has always been the presentation.&nbsp; Always.&nbsp; It's not the mechanics, it's not anything else.&nbsp; It's how it was presented.I mean, one of the biggest complaints about 4e is the idea of meta-mechanics.&nbsp; The dreaded &quot;dissociated mechanics&quot;.&nbsp; Yet, look at DDN.&nbsp; We have Advantage/Disadvantage.&nbsp; Think about this for a second.&nbsp; When you have either, you roll twice and choose the higher or lower result depending.How is this not completely dissociated from the fiction?&nbsp; Is there some sort of quantum splitting of time, where the reality of the world bifurcates briefly before the observed reality trumps the other?&nbsp; Of course not.&nbsp; The mechanic is 100% meta-game.&nbsp; The player rolls twice, but, in the game fiction, only one action occurs.Yet, there has been nary a peep from the meta-mechanic police complaining how this breaks their immersion.&nbsp; How rolling twice for the same action does not, in any way, disturb their feelings of &quot;being in the game world&quot;.&nbsp; If this had been introduced in a 4e book, you can guarantee that people would be jumping all over it.Or the Combat Expertise dice.&nbsp; Again, completely meta-gaming.&nbsp; Pure meta-game mechanic.&nbsp; You roll the dice AFTER results are known.&nbsp; Yet, again, it receives kudos pretty much from anyone.&nbsp; About the only criticism is that it's being used for too many classes.&nbsp; Again, if this had been a 4e mechanic, people would have loathed it, dog-piled on it, and we'd have forty-six page threads decrying how WOTC has destroyed the game.&nbsp; I mean, dice pools?&nbsp; Holy crap!&nbsp; How un-D&amp;D can you get?&nbsp; Yet, it gets the slide, purely because it isn't a 4e mechanic.4e, a great game with unfortunately poor presentation.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6073459, member: 22779"] 4e's biggest downfall has always been the presentation. Always. It's not the mechanics, it's not anything else. It's how it was presented. I mean, one of the biggest complaints about 4e is the idea of meta-mechanics. The dreaded "dissociated mechanics". Yet, look at DDN. We have Advantage/Disadvantage. Think about this for a second. When you have either, you roll twice and choose the higher or lower result depending. How is this not completely dissociated from the fiction? Is there some sort of quantum splitting of time, where the reality of the world bifurcates briefly before the observed reality trumps the other? Of course not. The mechanic is 100% meta-game. The player rolls twice, but, in the game fiction, only one action occurs. Yet, there has been nary a peep from the meta-mechanic police complaining how this breaks their immersion. How rolling twice for the same action does not, in any way, disturb their feelings of "being in the game world". If this had been introduced in a 4e book, you can guarantee that people would be jumping all over it. Or the Combat Expertise dice. Again, completely meta-gaming. Pure meta-game mechanic. You roll the dice AFTER results are known. Yet, again, it receives kudos pretty much from anyone. About the only criticism is that it's being used for too many classes. Again, if this had been a 4e mechanic, people would have loathed it, dog-piled on it, and we'd have forty-six page threads decrying how WOTC has destroyed the game. I mean, dice pools? Holy crap! How un-D&D can you get? Yet, it gets the slide, purely because it [i]isn't[/i] a 4e mechanic. 4e, a great game with unfortunately poor presentation. [/QUOTE]

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