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Message: <blockquote data-quote="S'mon" data-source="post: 6075780" data-attributes="member: 463">I haven't used any Forge terminology. Certainly not in that post you quoted. I haven't read all that much Forge articles (a few back in  ca 2003-4) and I have trouble understanding some of the terms Pemerton uses, especially 'Vanilla'. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> (I think I understand that when Pemerton says 'High Concept Sim' it is a horrible Forgeist term that actually means Dramatic play emulating a story genre, as opposed to World-Simulation). <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />OT: I do use the terms in the rec,games.roleplay 'Threefold model' that Edwards adapted/mangled with his GNS, but also popularised:Gamist - game design directed to players facing/overcoming real challenges.Simulationist - game design directed to emulating an environment, for RPGs often to foster immersion.Dramatist - game design directed to creating an engaging/dramatic story. Includes Forgeist Narrativism.  4e encourages Protagonism by a lot of different devices - variable resources you can call on depending on how important you think the outcome is, various mechanisms protecting your PC from being taken out of play too quickly or too long, lots of elements telling you you're unusually important and backing it up with mechanics (culminating in Epic Destinies). In 3e I remember players facing the ultimate BBEG* after a year of play, he casts Finger of Death on the Cleric. Save or Die, basically in narrative terms a big "F you - you thought you were the Hero? Roll 12+ or it turns out you're just a redshirt!" The player was genuinely upset - especially when he saved, then the BBEG did it again! <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devil.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":devil:" title="Devil    :devil:" data-shortname=":devil:" /> (He saved again, they killed the BBEG and saved the world). My 4e BBEGs sometimes kill PCs too, but it's never as arbitrary as save-or-die, the game has inbuilt pacing mechanisms so there's a dramatic escalation.Edit: While 4e doesn't force the GM to let the PCs be the Big Damn Heroes, there is a default career progression via the level system from fighting kobolds to killing gods, God of War style -but structured so that fighting/killing Lolth should never be like a high level 1e trawl through Deities & Demigods, it should always be a big dramatic movie-style climax.Whil White Wolf and other '90s games may have some of the player-side elements I list above, their GM-side stuff is geared to de-Protagonise the PCs: Metaplot. Unkillable NPCs. Linear stories. Advice to use GM force to shuttle PCs down the rails and squelch any attempt to get off the tracks. 4e still has a few wisps of railroading in some of the GM advice, but nothing like the '90s. It mostly comes down to 'if you're running  linear adventure try to get them back on track - but sometimes you just need to let it go'.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />*The Master, from X5 Master of the Desert Nomads.</blockquote>

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