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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6076442" data-attributes="member: 22779">There's a difference here though.  We're not talking "less effective" really.  We're talking virtually ineffective.  The rogue's primary schtick in combat is lots of damage.  He fights something that is immune to SA and suddenly he's doing about 4 points of damage per hit.  Maybe.  Depending on other resistances.IOW, he's gone from being a major player at the table to being sidelined.  Not because of any choice he made, and that's the important part.  He's being sidelined simply because the mechanics have decreed that he shall not be important at this point in time.Now, once in a while?  That's fine.  The above example of the Pathfinder wraith is cool.  That's perfectly in keeping with genre fiction and to be expected.  However, in 3e, there were pretty broad swaths of pretty common monsters that sidelined the rogue.   Being sidelined or forced to deal with things in a single encounter, or maybe two encounters?  No worries at all.  Being sidelined for an entire adventure, and riding the pines for four sessions?  Not so much fun.That's what is being talked about.  One encounter?  No problem.  That's cool.  An entire adventure?  Not so cool.As far as 4e goes, I'd point out that with exception based rules, making something immune/resistant takes about 10 seconds.  And, because the math is pretty transparent, it's not like you aren't going to be able to figure out the results of that change.  I'm not seeing the major edition difference here.---------Remalthalis - if you wanted fireball to clear a room full of goblins, why aren't you using minions?  Which is what goblins were for the first three editions?  I mean, sure, if you use 5 bigger goblins, then fireball isn't going to cut it.  Then again, in 3e, the 5 goblins that your 5th level party met would likely be warrior 3's or 4's, just to make it an EL par encounter, and that fireball wouldn't kill them either.  I think that people are deliberately choosing to ignore 4e elements in order to accentuate differences.</blockquote>

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