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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6076540" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>On the whole "rogue vs undead, plants etc" issue - I pretty much agree with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION].</p><p></p><p>Assume the following things are true of the game:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">(1) Combat is a significant focus of play, in terms of time actually spent at the table engaging the action resolution mechanics;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">(2) Combat is predominantly about hit point attrition;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">(3) The rogue without Sneak Attack has no way of dealing much damage;</p><p></p><p>Then every time the rogue can't deploy Sneak Attack, the player of the Rogue is having at best a very limited impact on the play of the game.</p><p></p><p>If you change one of the 3 parameters I've mentioned you can make this particular issue go away, but (in my view) its not trivial.</p><p></p><p>Start with (1). D&D has always given the most degree of detailed attention to combat, as far as its action resolution mechanics are concerned. To a significant extent, the game becomes semi-freeform once it goes non-combat, at least up until 4e and its skill challenges. (Even in 3E with its skill system, the lack of structure in resolution comparable to combat makes non-combat resolution semi-freeform.) There are pros and cons to that mode of play, but it's not obvious to me that the player of the rogue has any obvious advantages in respect of it (except perhaps compared to the player of the 3E fighter).</p><p></p><p>Turn to (2). Suggestions like Tanglefoot bags, pouches of marbles etc are, in effect, suggestions for overcoming (2). But in my view they run the danger of overreach - if pouches of marbles are <em>really</em> that effective, what is the point, ingame of weapons and Sneak Attack? And what is the point, at the metagame level, of all that ink spilled on the hit and damage rules? Not to mention that, as Hussar noted, the rogue has no special advantage here other than perhaps a slightly higher DEX. If the rogue is meant to be played as a (semi-)controller, I would much prefer to see that built into the class and the combat mechanics designed to handle it properly.</p><p></p><p>Finally, UMD. This can be a way of negating (2) - by improving the rogue's control - or of (3), by allowing the rogue to use damaing spells against plants and undead. But what is the point of having the rogue class play as a surrogate wizard? This is a 3E-ism only - it wasn't part of classic D&D except at very high levels in which the thief got a limited ability to use spell scrolls, which in any event couldn't generally be purchased and were very hard to scribe. I personally fail to see what it adds to the game: if the only viable rogue archetype has to be a magic-user to prosper, why not rebuild the class as a duskblade/arcane trickster sort of thing?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6076540, member: 42582"] On the whole "rogue vs undead, plants etc" issue - I pretty much agree with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]. Assume the following things are true of the game: [indent](1) Combat is a significant focus of play, in terms of time actually spent at the table engaging the action resolution mechanics; (2) Combat is predominantly about hit point attrition; (3) The rogue without Sneak Attack has no way of dealing much damage;[/indent] Then every time the rogue can't deploy Sneak Attack, the player of the Rogue is having at best a very limited impact on the play of the game. If you change one of the 3 parameters I've mentioned you can make this particular issue go away, but (in my view) its not trivial. Start with (1). D&D has always given the most degree of detailed attention to combat, as far as its action resolution mechanics are concerned. To a significant extent, the game becomes semi-freeform once it goes non-combat, at least up until 4e and its skill challenges. (Even in 3E with its skill system, the lack of structure in resolution comparable to combat makes non-combat resolution semi-freeform.) There are pros and cons to that mode of play, but it's not obvious to me that the player of the rogue has any obvious advantages in respect of it (except perhaps compared to the player of the 3E fighter). Turn to (2). Suggestions like Tanglefoot bags, pouches of marbles etc are, in effect, suggestions for overcoming (2). But in my view they run the danger of overreach - if pouches of marbles are [I]really[/I] that effective, what is the point, ingame of weapons and Sneak Attack? And what is the point, at the metagame level, of all that ink spilled on the hit and damage rules? Not to mention that, as Hussar noted, the rogue has no special advantage here other than perhaps a slightly higher DEX. If the rogue is meant to be played as a (semi-)controller, I would much prefer to see that built into the class and the combat mechanics designed to handle it properly. Finally, UMD. This can be a way of negating (2) - by improving the rogue's control - or of (3), by allowing the rogue to use damaing spells against plants and undead. But what is the point of having the rogue class play as a surrogate wizard? This is a 3E-ism only - it wasn't part of classic D&D except at very high levels in which the thief got a limited ability to use spell scrolls, which in any event couldn't generally be purchased and were very hard to scribe. I personally fail to see what it adds to the game: if the only viable rogue archetype has to be a magic-user to prosper, why not rebuild the class as a duskblade/arcane trickster sort of thing? [/QUOTE]
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