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4th edition, The fantastic game that everyone hated.
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<blockquote data-quote="LostSoul" data-source="post: 6076555" data-attributes="member: 386"><p>"De-protagonism" shouldn't be seen in terms of "I have a rogue and he can't use sneak attack against constructs, therefore the game is broken." It's more like: "I made an assassin-type character in order to deal with the theme of "the cheap price of life" in the game, which is what we talked about before play, but in play I keep getting into situations where that theme never comes up/I have no way to address it (because the only antagonists the DM presents are constructs)."</p><p></p><p>There are other examples: "I wanted to play Star Wars because I <em>don't</em> agree with what Lucas had to say about anger and healthy ways to deal with it, but every time I try to express that point of view, I get a Dark Side Point and run the risk of losing my PC."</p><p></p><p>Anyway, it's specific to narrativism. I think 4E does a decent job of avoiding the de-protagonism issue because it doesn't make any specific sort of action-resolution method (from the PC's point of view) invalid. In a step-on-up game, you want/expect the system to provide all sorts of situations where any specific sort of action-resolution method becomes invalid, because then the player needs to come up with the solution.</p><p></p><p>Though I have to say that I'm not completely sold on the idea that 4E avoids de-protagonism. I think it's because I believe that you need to face <em>desperate</em> thematic choices in order to really be a compelling protagonist. If choice X is as good as choice Y, is it really a choice? I guess so, if the difference is a big moral choice... but I think the choice has a lot more weight if you're forced to think, "Well, I could do X, but I'm probably not going to get what I want; I could do Y, and most likely get what I want, but Y is <em>horrible</em>; so is what I want worth doing something horrible for?" I don't think 4E forces you to ask those questions.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="LostSoul, post: 6076555, member: 386"] "De-protagonism" shouldn't be seen in terms of "I have a rogue and he can't use sneak attack against constructs, therefore the game is broken." It's more like: "I made an assassin-type character in order to deal with the theme of "the cheap price of life" in the game, which is what we talked about before play, but in play I keep getting into situations where that theme never comes up/I have no way to address it (because the only antagonists the DM presents are constructs)." There are other examples: "I wanted to play Star Wars because I [i]don't[/i] agree with what Lucas had to say about anger and healthy ways to deal with it, but every time I try to express that point of view, I get a Dark Side Point and run the risk of losing my PC." Anyway, it's specific to narrativism. I think 4E does a decent job of avoiding the de-protagonism issue because it doesn't make any specific sort of action-resolution method (from the PC's point of view) invalid. In a step-on-up game, you want/expect the system to provide all sorts of situations where any specific sort of action-resolution method becomes invalid, because then the player needs to come up with the solution. Though I have to say that I'm not completely sold on the idea that 4E avoids de-protagonism. I think it's because I believe that you need to face [i]desperate[/i] thematic choices in order to really be a compelling protagonist. If choice X is as good as choice Y, is it really a choice? I guess so, if the difference is a big moral choice... but I think the choice has a lot more weight if you're forced to think, "Well, I could do X, but I'm probably not going to get what I want; I could do Y, and most likely get what I want, but Y is [i]horrible[/i]; so is what I want worth doing something horrible for?" I don't think 4E forces you to ask those questions. [/QUOTE]
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