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Message: <blockquote data-quote="D'karr" data-source="post: 6077025" data-attributes="member: 336">And if it's not happening at my table, who cares?  It's not a problem at my table because the players are invested in the campaign, besides the possibility of powergaming.  They are invested in their characters, the stories that they create, and their interactions within the "game world". Whether they powergame is irrelevant to all of that.So what?  If it doesn't affect the table I'm running in, who cares that there are "millions" of people talking about their 12th level paladin on a game site.  In addition I'm pretty sure that most of the "advice" about powergaming a paladin is still going to be using the thematic strengths of that character.If the DM and players at a particular table don't have a problem with the powergaming is it really a problem?  The powergaming angle is usually overblown in anecdotes, and strawman cases.  Just because a lot of people might discuss the best way to optimize X, Y, or Z does not mean that there is a problem with people optimizing X, Y, or Z at my table.  And at the end of the day that is the only table I care about.Just because some people are doing it does not mean that everyone is, and if it doesn't affect your table, then who cares if others are doing this?  Play the game the way you like, and let others play the way they like.  If you're the DM and you don't want to have a cowardly paladin then talk to the specific player that is doing this about your expectation of thematic adherence.  A lot of these "imagined" problems usually fail to note that the game can easily be tweaked to the expectations of both the DM and players; if they only took the time to talk to each other instead of making wild assertions on internet forums.  Character classes and material for the game appears at a game table at the discretion of both the DM and players.  If someone created a world that has no elves then players will probably not be playing elves in that game.  Dark Sun has no divine casters, and that didn't destroy the game.The most important thing is that both the DM and players are clear about their expectations for the game.  If somebody wants to play an elf, in the no-elf campaign there are two possible outcomes.  The player doesn't play an elf, or the DM makes a concession to the concept and allows an elf. That type of give and take should not be difficult to understand.In addition, just because people might powergame does not mean that they are not also role playing.  These two things are not mutually exclusive.  That is a lie that needs to be exposed for what it is at every turn.  I've met my share of power gamers, and many, if not most, of them did a pretty good job of role playing their class thematically; in addition to being very effective in combat.The themes for the paladin are pretty clear in the class writeup, and the power selections and feats usually reinforce those themes in a mechanical way.  If someone wants to play against type, is that a problem with the game, or the person playing against type?  The mechanics of the rules already reward the adherence to the archetype as described in the writeup, if a person wants to play against those expectations they really are doing a pretty bad job of powergaming.A paladin is mostly a melee defender with divine thematic elements.  If I want to play a cowardly paladin and skulk in shadows, and shoot creatures from a distance I'm going to suck in a major way when compared to the rogue.  Most of my powers will be completely ineffective if I play in that manner.  Is that really powergaming?</blockquote>

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