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4th edition, The fantastic game that everyone hated.
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6077079" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I don't agree with this. When you look at the class features plus the class powers, they're all about being a valiant defender.</p><p></p><p> [MENTION=30619]Siberys[/MENTION] and [MENTION=336]D'karr[/MENTION] have elaborated this upthread - I agree with them. There is also the fact that paladins have the best AC and large number of healing surges, which gives a mechanical for them to take the risks and wear the hurt (otherwise the party as a whole will have to rest with one PC still having surges unused).</p><p></p><p>Though don't Blackguards also get Valiant Smite? Perhaps a case of the desire for mechanical economy leading to a failure in naming.</p><p></p><p>I basically agree with your take on edition skirmishing, and the metagame stuff (though I don't think all powers are as metagame as Valiant Strike - but even close weapon bursts are better seen, in my view, as tweaking with the turn sequence rules rather than as standing for a single 360-degree swing of the weapon, which is how I've seen some 3E players characterise Whirlwind Attack).</p><p></p><p> [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] takes an interesting alternative view from mine, though - with the paladin experiencing the "to hit" bonus as a divine blessing. [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] seems to have a similar view. That's one reasonable alternative to my meta-game take. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with this - and [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] also said much the same upthread, that the tightness of mechanics and theme means by playing your PC mechanically you get pulled holus-bolus into its theme. And this is independent of whether we read the powers as ingame or meta-game.</p><p></p><p> [MENTION=6688937]Ratskinner[/MENTION], I'm not sure what advantage there is in the XP-bonus approach (you get stronger over the long term) compared to the build-it-into-the-power aproach (you get stronger immediately, in context). Be that as it may, Gygax's AD&D did try to have something like what you suggest, only it was built into the training time and cost rules rather than the actual XP requirements. (Although Gygax only gives class specifcations for the 4 core classes, not for sub-classes, where extrapolation would be required.)</p><p></p><p>I agree with this - the metagame is not visible within the fiction because of the integration/overlap/multiplicity that you describe.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6077079, member: 42582"] I don't agree with this. When you look at the class features plus the class powers, they're all about being a valiant defender. [MENTION=30619]Siberys[/MENTION] and [MENTION=336]D'karr[/MENTION] have elaborated this upthread - I agree with them. There is also the fact that paladins have the best AC and large number of healing surges, which gives a mechanical for them to take the risks and wear the hurt (otherwise the party as a whole will have to rest with one PC still having surges unused). Though don't Blackguards also get Valiant Smite? Perhaps a case of the desire for mechanical economy leading to a failure in naming. I basically agree with your take on edition skirmishing, and the metagame stuff (though I don't think all powers are as metagame as Valiant Strike - but even close weapon bursts are better seen, in my view, as tweaking with the turn sequence rules rather than as standing for a single 360-degree swing of the weapon, which is how I've seen some 3E players characterise Whirlwind Attack). [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] takes an interesting alternative view from mine, though - with the paladin experiencing the "to hit" bonus as a divine blessing. [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] seems to have a similar view. That's one reasonable alternative to my meta-game take. I agree with this - and [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] also said much the same upthread, that the tightness of mechanics and theme means by playing your PC mechanically you get pulled holus-bolus into its theme. And this is independent of whether we read the powers as ingame or meta-game. [MENTION=6688937]Ratskinner[/MENTION], I'm not sure what advantage there is in the XP-bonus approach (you get stronger over the long term) compared to the build-it-into-the-power aproach (you get stronger immediately, in context). Be that as it may, Gygax's AD&D did try to have something like what you suggest, only it was built into the training time and cost rules rather than the actual XP requirements. (Although Gygax only gives class specifcations for the 4 core classes, not for sub-classes, where extrapolation would be required.) I agree with this - the metagame is not visible within the fiction because of the integration/overlap/multiplicity that you describe. [/QUOTE]
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