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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6077143" data-attributes="member: 82106">Not taking sides particularly in this whole debate, but...The DCs in 4e as of RC are at level 1 8/12/19 and at level 30 22/32/42, so a level 1 PC with a 10 and an off stat needs 8/12/19 to succeed on checks. At level 30 that PC has +16 and now needs 6/16/26, so things get a modest amount worse for them WRT medium and hard DCs. Of course it would be pretty unusual for a PC to get to level 30 and have NOTHING in the way of even a situationally applicable bonus to an off skill check they could apply if it is really urgent, so its reasonable to believe that with a small resource expenditure the PC is in about the same situation at all levels if they gain no bonuses. OTOH if said character is starting with an off (secondary) stat, of say 14 they start with 6/10/17 and if they put say 4 points into it to get an 18 by level 30 then they're at 3/13/23, and if they got training they've actually improved their chances all around at 1/8/18. There are MANY MANY ways for characters to increase a skill besides stat bonus increases. It is quite feasible to start with a 10 stat skill at +12 if you really want, +10 is trivial. In some cases you can go higher. Characters routinely achieve bonuses of +60 by 30th level and +40 is quite feasible without stat bonuses (an almost automatic success on any check). This means that characters actually are quite capable of being 'perfect' at any skill, regardless of stat allocation (though it requires non-trivial resources). A good half-elf bard skill monkey can come scarily close to "fail on a 1 for any skill check at all" by level 30, and still be a viable character to boot! Of course in most games the reality is that characters do have pretty serious and sometimes insurmountable differences in bonuses. DMs often use DCs far above the party level and character with a +5 Perception bonus at 4th level is probably not going to pick up the really hard to spot stuff even if they may have training or a sharp eye. Of course if said character keeps using their skill it probably will pay off now and then, and in the right place at the right time said character may do wonders, even at high levels. They're just not likely to spot the fiendishly nasty trap set by the Master of Deception. Obviously someone else should be available for that task though. IMHO there is no perfect skill system. 4e's system, though maybe not the only possible good solution, and with a few minor imperfections (fighter skill list) is probably about as strong as any skill system in a feasible RPG of the sort that have skill systems as will ever be. I recall participating in the long and involved debates on the WotC forums that raged for years on the subject. We explored MANY options, and I failed to be convinced of the clear superiority of any of them.</blockquote>

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