Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
4th edition, The fantastic game that everyone hated.
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6078308" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>And thank you. This is one of the major reasons I keep arguing here - most of the people actually arguing are unlikely to change, but the audience matters. You've made my day.</p><p></p><p>And your three issues are all genuine issues with 4e, but 2012 era 4e, especially including Essentials, has them less prominently than 2008 era 4e.</p><p></p><p><strong>Time to play out an encounter</strong></p><p></p><p>This came down for two reasons.</p><p></p><p>The first is that with the Monster Manual 3, WotC raised the damage on almost all monsters by half their level, and monster design improved so almost all monsters in the awesome Monster Vault are leaner, meaner, and nastier than their Monster Manual 1 predecessors. (Seriously, if you are thinking about trying 4e again pick up Monster Vault (<a href="http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20101025b" target="_blank">previews</a>) and probably also Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale (<a href="http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20110520" target="_blank">previews</a>) - they are in my opinion the two best monster manuals for any edition of D&D). This has the effect of reducing the average combat length from five to six rounds to three to four.</p><p></p><p>The second is that most Essentials classes have a lot less analysis paralysis. When it comes to attacking, a high heroic tier 4e PC to have two at will attacks, three encounter attacks, and three daily attacks even at heroic tier. That's eight distinct options of how to hit someone - and on top of that you need to decide who to hit. Most people can only hold seven plus or minus two things in their head at once so you get analysis paralysis with people not knowing what to do. Most post-Essentials classes break the decision point up so, for example the Knight has two stances to choose between (and if the knight's current stance is good, there's no reason to change it), then decides who to hit with a melee basic attack (modified by stance), and only after hitting decides whether to Power Strike - i.e. use an encounter power. They still effectively have a full collection of At Wills and Encounter Powers - but the choice is broken up into lots of small, simple choices with only a couple of options rather than one great big choice of everything, and people don't get overwhelmed by choices with a lot of the newer classes. (There's even a spellcaster (the Elementalist Sorceror) who has no daily attack powers and has boosts as encounter attack powers, so the choice to make when attacking is first whether to single target blast or AoE blast and secondly whether to boost or not).</p><p></p><p>Between the two, I expect to run an ordinary combat in about half an hour.</p><p></p><p><strong>Bonusses and Conditions</strong></p><p></p><p>This too has improved. Class design has got a bit better - but the main reason why it's improved is down to one single role. The Defender. A pre-Essentials defender would Mark people. This meant you had one role that should always have at least one condition applied to a monster. The Knight, the Cavalier, and the Beserker don't mark people at all. Instead they have a "Defender Aura" - they own the space around them. If an enemy is next to the defender, they are in the defender aura and subject to the mark punishment if they shift or attack someone else. If not, they aren't. This means the second most common status effect in the game (only Bloodied being more common) can now be seen by anyone at a glance and doesn't actually need tracking.</p><p></p><p>Also mark punishment for our new defenders is an opportunity action rather than an interrupt - you get one per monster rather than one for the defender to cover the turn. This sounds as if it should slow things down but in practice it speeds them up - it's an automatically triggered effect rather than something for the defender to think about. Extra damage with no decision time - again speeds things up.</p><p></p><p><strong>Out of turn actions</strong></p><p></p><p>Other than the Defenders now making opportunity rather than interrupt attacks, the out of turn actions have gone down. More accurately, they haven't gone up while the options have. Most new classes were designed with either zero or one of them (for instance the Cavalier (the Defender Aura version of the Paladin) has the Righteous Shield power to take the damage for a nearby ally and then come out swinging - any other out of turn options they have are legacy options that are available because they can use Paladin daily and utility powers.</p><p></p><p>I hope some of that was reassuring <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6078308, member: 87792"] And thank you. This is one of the major reasons I keep arguing here - most of the people actually arguing are unlikely to change, but the audience matters. You've made my day. And your three issues are all genuine issues with 4e, but 2012 era 4e, especially including Essentials, has them less prominently than 2008 era 4e. [B]Time to play out an encounter[/B] This came down for two reasons. The first is that with the Monster Manual 3, WotC raised the damage on almost all monsters by half their level, and monster design improved so almost all monsters in the awesome Monster Vault are leaner, meaner, and nastier than their Monster Manual 1 predecessors. (Seriously, if you are thinking about trying 4e again pick up Monster Vault ([URL="http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20101025b"]previews[/URL]) and probably also Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale ([URL="http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20110520"]previews[/URL]) - they are in my opinion the two best monster manuals for any edition of D&D). This has the effect of reducing the average combat length from five to six rounds to three to four. The second is that most Essentials classes have a lot less analysis paralysis. When it comes to attacking, a high heroic tier 4e PC to have two at will attacks, three encounter attacks, and three daily attacks even at heroic tier. That's eight distinct options of how to hit someone - and on top of that you need to decide who to hit. Most people can only hold seven plus or minus two things in their head at once so you get analysis paralysis with people not knowing what to do. Most post-Essentials classes break the decision point up so, for example the Knight has two stances to choose between (and if the knight's current stance is good, there's no reason to change it), then decides who to hit with a melee basic attack (modified by stance), and only after hitting decides whether to Power Strike - i.e. use an encounter power. They still effectively have a full collection of At Wills and Encounter Powers - but the choice is broken up into lots of small, simple choices with only a couple of options rather than one great big choice of everything, and people don't get overwhelmed by choices with a lot of the newer classes. (There's even a spellcaster (the Elementalist Sorceror) who has no daily attack powers and has boosts as encounter attack powers, so the choice to make when attacking is first whether to single target blast or AoE blast and secondly whether to boost or not). Between the two, I expect to run an ordinary combat in about half an hour. [B]Bonusses and Conditions[/B] This too has improved. Class design has got a bit better - but the main reason why it's improved is down to one single role. The Defender. A pre-Essentials defender would Mark people. This meant you had one role that should always have at least one condition applied to a monster. The Knight, the Cavalier, and the Beserker don't mark people at all. Instead they have a "Defender Aura" - they own the space around them. If an enemy is next to the defender, they are in the defender aura and subject to the mark punishment if they shift or attack someone else. If not, they aren't. This means the second most common status effect in the game (only Bloodied being more common) can now be seen by anyone at a glance and doesn't actually need tracking. Also mark punishment for our new defenders is an opportunity action rather than an interrupt - you get one per monster rather than one for the defender to cover the turn. This sounds as if it should slow things down but in practice it speeds them up - it's an automatically triggered effect rather than something for the defender to think about. Extra damage with no decision time - again speeds things up. [B]Out of turn actions[/B] Other than the Defenders now making opportunity rather than interrupt attacks, the out of turn actions have gone down. More accurately, they haven't gone up while the options have. Most new classes were designed with either zero or one of them (for instance the Cavalier (the Defender Aura version of the Paladin) has the Righteous Shield power to take the damage for a nearby ally and then come out swinging - any other out of turn options they have are legacy options that are available because they can use Paladin daily and utility powers. I hope some of that was reassuring :) [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
4th edition, The fantastic game that everyone hated.
Top