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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 6078671">The Knight who also loses pretty much every trick in his book if he violates his knightly code of honor(which was actually worse than the Paladin, the Paladin could at least beat the stuffing out of people or even kill them if they did evil deeds, the Knight couldn't even do that!).And while we're at it, lets take some tidbits here:The Knight can't get combat advantage...because it's dishonorable.The Knight never attacks a flat-footed opponent because that's dishonorable.(So the Knight basically never acts first in an encounter or gets the jump on anyone.)The Knight never deals lethal damage against a helpless foe....so any demons up for channeling their evil power through Little Timmy?The Knight, by their Paladin-esque restrictions, basically sucks as a Defender.  The whole POINT of a defender is to take advantage of the enemy, defend your allies, and ya know, stuff like that.  But the Knight can't do any of that.  He's a cool concept for single combat, but he can't do any of the things the 4e Knight can do, therefore he sucks as a defender.  At least the Knight doesn't have to be the Lawful Jerk and not tolerate bad deeds in others.  But violations of his code still cost him uses of his powers(a little better than the Paladin punishment), but enough violations and you'll probably get there, or like Paladins, a serious enough offense.Yeah, I like honorable, valiant-styled characters.  I play a Paladin, Avenger or something along those lines of a semi-divine, semi-martial striker with a ray of holy sunshine up his rear pretty much any chance I get.  But I can RP honor, valor, a desire to protect and help others with ANY class.  I don't need to be beaten with a rod on a regular basis in order to do so.  I may not deal out radiant/holy/divine damage while doing so, but nothing is really stopping me from playing an honorable, valorous, caring 3X Archer-Fighter or 4e Ranger.  I don't think every class needs the amount of inlaid fluff the Paladin has, but I think some classes do, because without the codes and the alignments and all of that sort of stuff, what is a Paladin but a fighter-cleric?  4e is certainly no exception to editions that have long fluffed the Paladin as a holy warrior, so the complaints that someone can't make a non-holy, non-valorous, non-honorable warrior with a Paladin is sort of weird.  It's like complaining that you can't make dirt into water.</blockquote>

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