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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6078928" data-attributes="member: 22779">Well, we can go back and forth over what is sufficient or not, but, even without the explicit explanation in the rules, that doesn't change the fact that there is more support for that style of play than ever existed previously.  But, how far can we take what you're saying though?  If I want to play a robot jockey, a la Mechwarrior, isn't it fair to say, "Don't play D&D?"  Certainly at the extremes, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say.Now, replace, "I want to be a robot jockey" with, "I want to play a process sim based game" and that's pretty much how I feel about the comments about 3e.  So much of 3e (and even more in earlier editions) runs counter to this goal.  Virtually every aspect of play will get in your way if you try to do this.  About the only elements which might support this style of play mechanically, are some of the skills.  Certainly not all.  And certainly not something like Profession skills (which often get cited in these discussions) because Profession skills are about as far from Process Sim as you can get.  Roll the dice and you get this much money for this much time spent.  That's ALL profession skills do, out of the box.  Granted, it's not a big stretch to drift that, and that's fair.  But, out of the box, that is all they do.  So, how is the system promoting process sim here?  So, again, no, I don't see the comparison.  4e has several core elements that speak directly to the sort of play Pemerton talks about.  The fact that many of these elements are the ones that people complain the loudest about, precisely because they are player advocacy/meta-game mechanics means that it's pretty clear to most people reading the rules that they recognize that these elements exist in the game.3e has virtually no elements which support Process Sim play.  Certainly very few of the baseline core elements do.  You have to start monkeying with the mechanics right from character generation onwards in order to achieve even a semblance of Process Sim play.  The whole, "I want to play a process sim game, so, I like 3e" is generally in the same category as, "3e is so video gamey" or "4e is so board gamey".  A group of poorly thought out and poorly articulated arguments trying to justify why someone doesn't like a particular game.  Scratch the surface and most of the argument falls apart.</blockquote>

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