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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MoonSong" data-source="post: 6079448" data-attributes="member: 6689464">Amazing how fast this thread went crazy. More amazing how I read half of it after promising myself I wouldn't bother, anyway nice discussion.Anyway. Don't get me wrong, in the past year I have earned a growing respect and liking for 4e. I even enjoy it (and lament how hard it is to DM it on pbp, it is a total nightmare). However for all of it's good things I still find it extremely rigid on places I was more used to flexibility and cannot help but feel it lacks support for many characters I enjoy on 2e and 3.5: * A paladin/sorcerer (3.5), yes this pc is mildly disrupting to party dynamics, but he was it long before becoming a paladin. Originally he was a thug/conman/streetrat swashbuckling sorcerer, except for magic missile all of his magic was light-themed and based upon utility, and it was extremely raw and unpolished (and to the date he is still a total idiot with regards to arcane things), always sticking to weapons first (to the date he has only used magic missile twice over the course of many fights and levels). He was an extremely troublemaker, being big pals with the party rogue and a constant headache on the then resident paladin, however the sudden deaths of both characters along with witnessing the horrors and brutaliuty of an orc invasion sent him over the edge, he became a paladin without planning it (or even realising it). Still over the course of three paladin levels he has slowly discovered those new gifts he at first assumed were new and weird spells. Now a 4e hybrid palisor or a sorerer/paladin or paladin/sorcerer just lacks the slow and weird mix of abilities this particular character has, and rituals just don't cut the bill, because if there is anything this PC hasn't ever touched on his life is a book. (did I also mention this guy wears no armor at all despite being a frontliner, alternates dualwield with tripping weapons, is a decent archer and very acrobatic, while still doing all of the paladiny stuff, all of this by core alone?)*A priestess of love (2e). Needless to say this particular priestess is completely pathetic on any form of combat that doesn't revolves around a bow or a lasso, yet she has managed to be valuable on a fight without having any weapon,  spells preppared, or even any gear to speak off.  The only reason this priestess isn't a pacifist is because that would preclude her from using a lasso for called shots (and that is too way damn fun to pass out). Any idea on how to have this kind of character work on 4e?* the general non-killing healer (I have played many of these kind, rogue and bard are common multiclass combos) Actually I have received some advice on this same forums about how to convert this general concept to 4e. The only thing that keeps being missed is the lack of temporal/subdual/non-lethal damage and it's related set of feats and merciful weapons. This might not seem like a big loss, after all in 4e you just determine if you kill or subdue when you last hit an enemy. But it is a huge change, before you could take part on the battle knowing that short of massive damage (which would kill anything anyway) you were still contributing to the party winning without also contributing to the party slaying of another creature, now in order to get the same effect on 4e I have to tell the strikers how to paly their characters!. Needless to say that never before 4e I found someone telling "no thank you, your healing isn't welcome I'm just taking a long rest now" -and no matter how many times I hear "but wands of cure light wounds/lesser vigor made you moot too", I can't help but find those arguments as strawmans, yes it is possible, but if you as self-designated paramedic don't buy/craft these, my experience is that nobody else in the party will, they'll use their resources to be better at killing stuff rather than try to replace your main ability-.</blockquote>

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