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<blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 6080169" data-attributes="member: 27160">Yes, I know we disagree somewhat on this, but we may be getting closer with this:Although I would still say the principal division is between &quot;heroic/paragon/epic tools&quot; that are in the players' hands and &quot;DM's doodads&quot; that are under the DM's control, I can see some desire for a division in the latter category. On the one hand there are the &quot;bits of the game world that players are given to play with for a while&quot;, and on the other are &quot;items that are really NPCs for the DM to use to stir things up&quot;. The first category includes what the &quot;new world order&quot; called &quot;Rares&quot; and Artifacts like The Book of Infinite Spells, The Codex of Infinite Planes, The Hammer of Thunderbolts and The Shield of Prator. The second includes all the Artifacts that get a Concordance score and goals. I would call these classes &quot;Simple Artifacts&quot; and &quot;Personality Artifacts&quot; to add to the plain &quot;Magic Items&quot; that are the things characters can make and (thus) players get (rules limited) control over, subject to party resources.So, we're probably not that far apart, really.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Balesir, post: 6080169, member: 27160"] Yes, I know we disagree somewhat on this, but we may be getting closer with this: Although I would still say the principal division is between "heroic/paragon/epic tools" that are in the players' hands and "DM's doodads" that are under the DM's control, I can see some desire for a division in the latter category. On the one hand there are the "bits of the game world that players are given to play with for a while", and on the other are "items that are really NPCs for the DM to use to stir things up". The first category includes what the "new world order" called "Rares" and Artifacts like The Book of Infinite Spells, The Codex of Infinite Planes, The Hammer of Thunderbolts and The Shield of Prator. The second includes all the Artifacts that get a Concordance score and goals. I would call these classes "Simple Artifacts" and "Personality Artifacts" to add to the plain "Magic Items" that are the things characters can make and (thus) players get (rules limited) control over, subject to party resources. So, we're probably not that far apart, really. [/QUOTE]

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