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<blockquote data-quote="Davelozzi" data-source="post: 1599090" data-attributes="member: 771">One of my players is an evoker (invoker? -- whichever they're called now) who just reached 7th level.&nbsp; This is the first level that he gets access to 4th level spells and he &amp; I both thought that the selection of 4th level spells seemed a bit weak, to some degree across all the schools, but particularly for evocation, especially in comparison to 3rd level spells like Fireball or even Lightning Bolt.For example, how is Ice Storm supposed to be better than Fireball?&nbsp; If I remember correctly, back in 2e if was still barely better, but at least it did equal damage in a large area of effect.&nbsp; Now it does less damage in the same area.&nbsp; It's a slight benefit that the damage is split between two types (3d6 bludgeoning/2d6 cold), in case the enemy has energy resistance, but that doesn't seem like enough to make up for its shortcomings, in my opinion.So I'm inviting both specific discussion of the above spells and general discussion of the 4th level spell list.&nbsp; Are there some worthwhile spells from alternate sources that seem fun and relatively balanced?&nbsp; We've already looked through Tome &amp; Blood, FFG's School of Evocation and of course the PHB (3.5).&nbsp; I also have Relics &amp; Rituals but I didn't have it with me and haven't had a chance to look through yet.Sometime I think the problem is just that Fireball should not have been a 3rd level spell in the first place.&nbsp; I guess it's a sacred cow, but I would've rather seen it moved up to 4th.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Davelozzi, post: 1599090, member: 771"] One of my players is an evoker (invoker? -- whichever they're called now) who just reached 7th level. This is the first level that he gets access to 4th level spells and he & I both thought that the selection of 4th level spells seemed a bit weak, to some degree across all the schools, but particularly for evocation, especially in comparison to 3rd level spells like Fireball or even Lightning Bolt. For example, how is Ice Storm supposed to be better than Fireball? If I remember correctly, back in 2e if was still barely better, but at least it did equal damage in a large area of effect. Now it does less damage in the same area. It's a slight benefit that the damage is split between two types (3d6 bludgeoning/2d6 cold), in case the enemy has energy resistance, but that doesn't seem like enough to make up for its shortcomings, in my opinion. So I'm inviting both specific discussion of the above spells and general discussion of the 4th level spell list. Are there some worthwhile spells from alternate sources that seem fun and relatively balanced? We've already looked through [i]Tome & Blood[/i], FFG's [i]School of Evocation[/i] and of course the [i]PHB[/i] (3.5). I also have [i]Relics & Rituals[/i] but I didn't have it with me and haven't had a chance to look through yet. Sometime I think the problem is just that Fireball should not have been a 3rd level spell in the first place. I guess it's a sacred cow, but I would've rather seen it moved up to 4th. [/QUOTE]

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