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<blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 6360642" data-attributes="member: 9789"><p>Yes: this is where we agree. The ability to "spend" 2-11+ spell slots in one bonus action is where this breaks, even if individually those spell slots aren't that big of a deal.</p><p></p><p>That's why I think putting a cap of at most 20 on your total is probably best, but I am guessing you'd like a cap that was lower. Either way, a cap of some sort seems reasonable.</p><p></p><p>I do think assuming even 82 skeletons would last more than 4 rounds against a dragon (they hadn't already killed) is unlikely, though. Even with bonus HP, I still think they will melt quickly against most foes; at best a small group might last a couple rounds, but since they do ~1/4th the damage of most evocations, that still puts them on the low side re: DPR. <em>Their value is really in wasting enemy actions.</em></p><p></p><p>Also, I would generally count Fireball as an AoE spell, so ~4 targets, typically. That's a more realistic use of the spell and expected damage, I think. So, even as a 3rd level spell, you're talking about (8d6) avg. 28 damage (save for half), times 4 = 112 DPR or 56 on all saves. That's the kind of bar I'm talking about with evocation. If you want to compare single-target damage, we might try something more like Disintegrate. That's a 6th level spell that does 10d6+40 (although apparently zero on a save!). So that's avg. 75 single-target damage, on a failed save. On the low side (as single-targets would be) compared to a 6th level Fireball (11d6) or a 7th level super-murder Delayed Blast Fireball (12d6 + as high as 60d6 more!!!! since it gains +1d6 per round for up to a minute) but still above the typical 10 skeleton DPR output of about 40 (assuming ~40% chance to hit against 11th level foes).</p><p></p><p>Yeah, the whole "magic items aren't required!" is a weird one to me. Both modules that have been released are still handing out items pretty frequently - certainly not what I would call "rare." And the existence of a stone golem - something that you HAVE to have either a magic weapon or an adamantine weapon to even hurt AT ALL - that's kind of tricky. I mean, I guess you could still say that you don't <em>have </em>to have a magic item since you could have adamantine, and you could also say "well just don't use that in your campaign," but it definitely seems more like the bar is "you will probably at least have a magic weapon" by about level 5-10, as opposed to "you won't ever have one."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="evilbob, post: 6360642, member: 9789"] Yes: this is where we agree. The ability to "spend" 2-11+ spell slots in one bonus action is where this breaks, even if individually those spell slots aren't that big of a deal. That's why I think putting a cap of at most 20 on your total is probably best, but I am guessing you'd like a cap that was lower. Either way, a cap of some sort seems reasonable. I do think assuming even 82 skeletons would last more than 4 rounds against a dragon (they hadn't already killed) is unlikely, though. Even with bonus HP, I still think they will melt quickly against most foes; at best a small group might last a couple rounds, but since they do ~1/4th the damage of most evocations, that still puts them on the low side re: DPR. [I]Their value is really in wasting enemy actions.[/I] Also, I would generally count Fireball as an AoE spell, so ~4 targets, typically. That's a more realistic use of the spell and expected damage, I think. So, even as a 3rd level spell, you're talking about (8d6) avg. 28 damage (save for half), times 4 = 112 DPR or 56 on all saves. That's the kind of bar I'm talking about with evocation. If you want to compare single-target damage, we might try something more like Disintegrate. That's a 6th level spell that does 10d6+40 (although apparently zero on a save!). So that's avg. 75 single-target damage, on a failed save. On the low side (as single-targets would be) compared to a 6th level Fireball (11d6) or a 7th level super-murder Delayed Blast Fireball (12d6 + as high as 60d6 more!!!! since it gains +1d6 per round for up to a minute) but still above the typical 10 skeleton DPR output of about 40 (assuming ~40% chance to hit against 11th level foes). Yeah, the whole "magic items aren't required!" is a weird one to me. Both modules that have been released are still handing out items pretty frequently - certainly not what I would call "rare." And the existence of a stone golem - something that you HAVE to have either a magic weapon or an adamantine weapon to even hurt AT ALL - that's kind of tricky. I mean, I guess you could still say that you don't [I]have [/I]to have a magic item since you could have adamantine, and you could also say "well just don't use that in your campaign," but it definitely seems more like the bar is "you will probably at least have a magic weapon" by about level 5-10, as opposed to "you won't ever have one." [/QUOTE]
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