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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 9658166" data-attributes="member: 7006"><p>For me the first question any DM needs to ask themselves when it comes to their skill list for their game is "Which checks am I asking for or are the players making more often than the others, and am I comfortable with that inequity?" These are the "important" checks that you rightly mention. If a DM finds they are constantly gating information they are doling out to players behind "Make a Perception check!" statements... it's no wonder every player tries to get proficiency in Perception. If a DM constantly has combats that start with monsters jumping out at the PCs and trying to take them by surprise... it's no wonder every player tries to get proficiency in Stealth in order for the party to avoid being noticed (and thus NOT get jumped all the time.) If a DM finds themselves constantly running wilderness adventures where the PCs are climbing trees/cliffs and swimming across lakes/rivers, and NOT running ocean or urban-based adventures and thus PCs are not needing to keep their balance on ship decks or across building peaks/ledges... it's no wonder every player forsakes Acrobatics and wants Athletics instead.</p><p></p><p>How useful is Sleight of Hand as a skill to players if DMs makes failing at a pickpocket check a potential arrest every time the PC fails, and thus players don't ever bother because the reward is not nearly worth the risk? Or how often does the DM have guards harass the PCs looking for contraband where they need to hide it on their person and it not get found? If the DM has created their narratives where Sleight of Hand just isn't worth having (because the players don't need to or don't <em>want</em> to make SoH checks)... then no player will bother to take it as a skill.</p><p></p><p>How often does a DM run scenarios in their games where players HAVE to do long-distance running or go on forced marches... enough so that creating and using an Endurance skill is not only worthwhile to that DM and their game, but that players would think it important enough to use one of their few skill proficiencies to take that skill?</p><p></p><p>How often do DMs run scenarios where the different types of strength-based actions occur so often that not only would they call for individualized Swim checks, Jump checks, Lift checks, Throw checks, Climb checks and so forth, but again that players would find and have the desire to spend precious proficiencies on getting them? I mean I'm currently playing in a Pathfinder game where Climb and Swim are separate skills and I do not find that "more meaningful" to have that rather than just having a combined Athletics skill. Mainly because neither skill comes up nearly enough for me to bother to spend many (if any) skill points on them. Not when I'm having to make Perception and Knowledge checks constantly just to receive information that our GM gates behind rolls.</p><p></p><p>This is why there is no "One size fits all" skill list OR skill system. Because every GM runs skills differently and uses them more or less often that others. So at the end of the day it doesn't matter what WotC puts in their book, because every DM should be amending the system to match their own needs and expectations. Sure, we all can whimper about the system they gave us and think there were better options available (like not putting in skills that directly overlap with tools in terms of proficiency, as I did earlier)... but none of us should play the game <em>as written</em> if we don't like it. Change the list to what we need... combine or split skills so that our eventual list ends up being called upon for checks <em>relatively</em> equally if possible... and let other DMs do the same. Because all of us are going to need something different.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 9658166, member: 7006"] For me the first question any DM needs to ask themselves when it comes to their skill list for their game is "Which checks am I asking for or are the players making more often than the others, and am I comfortable with that inequity?" These are the "important" checks that you rightly mention. If a DM finds they are constantly gating information they are doling out to players behind "Make a Perception check!" statements... it's no wonder every player tries to get proficiency in Perception. If a DM constantly has combats that start with monsters jumping out at the PCs and trying to take them by surprise... it's no wonder every player tries to get proficiency in Stealth in order for the party to avoid being noticed (and thus NOT get jumped all the time.) If a DM finds themselves constantly running wilderness adventures where the PCs are climbing trees/cliffs and swimming across lakes/rivers, and NOT running ocean or urban-based adventures and thus PCs are not needing to keep their balance on ship decks or across building peaks/ledges... it's no wonder every player forsakes Acrobatics and wants Athletics instead. How useful is Sleight of Hand as a skill to players if DMs makes failing at a pickpocket check a potential arrest every time the PC fails, and thus players don't ever bother because the reward is not nearly worth the risk? Or how often does the DM have guards harass the PCs looking for contraband where they need to hide it on their person and it not get found? If the DM has created their narratives where Sleight of Hand just isn't worth having (because the players don't need to or don't [I]want[/I] to make SoH checks)... then no player will bother to take it as a skill. How often does a DM run scenarios in their games where players HAVE to do long-distance running or go on forced marches... enough so that creating and using an Endurance skill is not only worthwhile to that DM and their game, but that players would think it important enough to use one of their few skill proficiencies to take that skill? How often do DMs run scenarios where the different types of strength-based actions occur so often that not only would they call for individualized Swim checks, Jump checks, Lift checks, Throw checks, Climb checks and so forth, but again that players would find and have the desire to spend precious proficiencies on getting them? I mean I'm currently playing in a Pathfinder game where Climb and Swim are separate skills and I do not find that "more meaningful" to have that rather than just having a combined Athletics skill. Mainly because neither skill comes up nearly enough for me to bother to spend many (if any) skill points on them. Not when I'm having to make Perception and Knowledge checks constantly just to receive information that our GM gates behind rolls. This is why there is no "One size fits all" skill list OR skill system. Because every GM runs skills differently and uses them more or less often that others. So at the end of the day it doesn't matter what WotC puts in their book, because every DM should be amending the system to match their own needs and expectations. Sure, we all can whimper about the system they gave us and think there were better options available (like not putting in skills that directly overlap with tools in terms of proficiency, as I did earlier)... but none of us should play the game [I]as written[/I] if we don't like it. Change the list to what we need... combine or split skills so that our eventual list ends up being called upon for checks [I]relatively[/I] equally if possible... and let other DMs do the same. Because all of us are going to need something different. [/QUOTE]
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