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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 6312683" data-attributes="member: 18">That's a good analogy. I think you can value both, though. I think Freud was amazing and a very important figure. I don't think most of his theories are worth the paper they are written on. I don't see a contradiction there.Just to be clear, this is a totally illogical and impossible argument, DDNFan. There can only be one "originator". If someone else was important as Gygax and Arneson, then it would be because they created a new field - which would likely not be called RPGs at all, but something. Again, important is not the same as skilled. If nothing else, you should note that it's Gygax and ARNESON who came up with the editions you're talking about - Gygax on his own didn't come up with any editions of D&D, nor any other impressive RPGs (nor did Arneson).As for "40 years" - well, it's 23 years since Vampire came out - people are still talking about that, and I'm quite certain that in 17 years, when I'm in my 50s, I'll remember Vampire and the WoDs, old and new, very well. I'm pretty sure there will still be the odd hot debate about exactly how much Mage Revised sucked and whether the Technocracy really are evil. Indeed, I'll be surprised if there isn't a new WoD by then. It's 25 since Shadowrun. People still play and discuss that. I should note that Vampire is particularly relevant here, because, like Gygax, Mark Rein*Hagen (who created Vampire, which kept the hobby alive for a lot of people, and added somewhere between hundreds of thousands or millions of players, depending on how you look at LARPs), has also not shown signs of being a particularly awesome game designer, when working post-WW (though mostly he just seems to have disappeared, along with JGT). What about Marc Miller's Traveller, too? That HAS been around over 40 years and is still being played and discussed. I witnessed a violent argument over whether TNE was any good and/or why it was terrible only last year. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson are the fathers of role-playing games. I don't think anyone disputes that.That doesn't entitle all their game design to special "you can't say bad things about their design!!!!" treatment. Period. It just means that people should not say they weren't important, that they didn't matter.(EDIT - for missing word!)EDIT - Further, I'd just like to add that, were it not for 3E, I'm pretty sure that we would consider D&D largely as an extinct or relic game, even if 2E products were still being published by some sort of decrepit TSR. Virtually every RPer I knew, by the later '90s, had ditched D&D (or was a member of a group that had played and would played nothing else, and 10 to 20 years older than me)</blockquote>

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