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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 8650021" data-attributes="member: 22779">Just to add to my last point because I was thinking a little bit more.I find the 5e skill system to be probably the weakest part of 5e.&nbsp; The skill system is vague, relies almost entirely on DM fiat and free form roleplay just to resolve basic tasks, and is largely pointless because the players have this giant magic system sitting right over there that bypasses most of the skill system and does so without relying on free form roleplay and DM fiat.&nbsp; So, when I don't really have a problem with the players saying something like, &quot;I try to convince the guard to let me pass, Persuasion 15&quot; it's because I know and they know that it really doesn't matter.&nbsp; The DC is entirely arbitrary - based on whatever I happen to feel like, because the rules certainly don't give much, if any, actual guidance on determining DC's.&nbsp; The success and fail states are entirely arbitrary - as [USER=16814]@Ovinomancer[/USER] calls it, &quot;rocks fall&quot; based on whatever the DM feels like at the time.&nbsp; The players have zero control over anything, and are basically just throwing numbers at a problem until the problem goes away.There's no difference between Player:&quot;I persuasion the guard to let us pass 15&quot; and Player:&quot;I talk to the guard to let us pass&quot;DM:&nbsp; Ok, what do you say?Player (comes up with some sort of plausible narration)Dm:&nbsp; Ok, we'll make that a persuasion check.&nbsp; If you succeed, he'll let you pass, if you fail, he's going to call for more guards to come.&nbsp; DC 15.Player:&nbsp; Roll.Other than the second way takes a lot longer to resolve.&nbsp; Either give me a skill system that actually has any real guidance or teeth in it or just forget about it and go freeform.&nbsp; The 5e skill system is largely pointless.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 8650021, member: 22779"] Just to add to my last point because I was thinking a little bit more. I find the 5e skill system to be probably the weakest part of 5e. The skill system is vague, relies almost entirely on DM fiat and free form roleplay just to resolve basic tasks, and is largely pointless because the players have this giant magic system sitting right over there that bypasses most of the skill system and does so without relying on free form roleplay and DM fiat. So, when I don't really have a problem with the players saying something like, "I try to convince the guard to let me pass, Persuasion 15" it's because I know and they know that it really doesn't matter. The DC is entirely arbitrary - based on whatever I happen to feel like, because the rules certainly don't give much, if any, actual guidance on determining DC's. The success and fail states are entirely arbitrary - as [USER=16814]@Ovinomancer[/USER] calls it, "rocks fall" based on whatever the DM feels like at the time. The players have zero control over anything, and are basically just throwing numbers at a problem until the problem goes away. There's no difference between Player:"I persuasion the guard to let us pass 15" and Player:"I talk to the guard to let us pass" DM: Ok, what do you say? Player (comes up with some sort of plausible narration) Dm: Ok, we'll make that a persuasion check. If you succeed, he'll let you pass, if you fail, he's going to call for more guards to come. DC 15. Player: Roll. Other than the second way takes a lot longer to resolve. Either give me a skill system that actually has any real guidance or teeth in it or just forget about it and go freeform. The 5e skill system is largely pointless. [/QUOTE]

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